Sound man rant...

Most of the time a small deli/bar = slider jockey which doesn't always mean "sound man". It Sounds as if your gig was the victim of someone ether wanting to learn how to work a mixing console or someone that was given the job of trying to run the mixing console that didn't have a clue. Ether way it sucks when you have to play under those conditions.
 
Someone help me out here, as I don't gig, but still am interested in the situations you guys have run into on stage...

How much control does a soundman really have over your tone when using the AxeFx? I thought the idea was to be able to just send him a line out and say "here's my sound. Make it as loud as everyone else on stage." Is it purely a volume thing, or are you talking about a more involved issue?
 
Every soundman we've worked with has loved the fractal. The global eq or reverb/effects mix settings are great for the few times things aren't sounding quite right.
 
Most of the time a small deli/bar = slider jockey which doesn't always mean "sound man". It Sounds as if your gig was the victim of someone ether wanting to learn how to work a mixing console or someone that was given the job of trying to run the mixing console that didn't have a clue. Ether way it sucks when you have to play under those conditions.

Pretty much... If I would have had a wireless I would have done it myself. Now looking at investing in one... LOL.
 
Someone help me out here, as I don't gig, but still am interested in the situations you guys have run into on stage...

How much control does a soundman really have over your tone when using the AxeFx? I thought the idea was to be able to just send him a line out and say "here's my sound. Make it as loud as everyone else on stage." Is it purely a volume thing, or are you talking about a more involved issue?

Great question. Coming from a studio perspective, I tend think of discrete roles for the Engineer and the Producer - even if they're they same person who switches hats depending on the day. The Engineer is typically the person who sets up the microphones / lines, get things set up for accurate recording, sets up temporary mixes for multitracking / overdubbing, etc. The Engineer essentially captures the ingredients. The Producer typically is the person who takes those raw ingredients and assembles them into a song. This means the Producer has a role in shaping the tones, adding effects, selecting takes, and even editing the form ("let's cut that third verse for the radio version"). The Producer may be making these changes when the band is not present in the studio. You put a lot of trust in that person, as they can help make or break your masterpiece.

All sound operators have a the basic responsibility of an Engineer. They should be able to take the inputs / mics and assemble a mix based on the relative volumes of each signal. Most reasonably competent sound operators are accustomed to having a Producer's role in the mix. They may decide the bass guitar is too bright and roll off some highs. That lead vocal would be smoother with some compression and plate reverb. Maybe the guitar would benefit from a bit of delay during the solo. Great sound operators are actively mixing the band during the entire show, acting as a +1 member of the band.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer is out of your control during the show. You can send them a signal and say "DON'T CHANGE A DAMNED THING IN MY SIGNAL", which is silly, and an insult to someone who is a good engineer. We want the FOH engineer to be the Producer, to take all the ingredients of the show and mix them together in the way that sounds best for the room. That is very subjective, and because the FOH operator will have their own taste about what YOUR music should sound like, they will have a large degree of impact on the product. If you want to help a Producer who is unfamiliar with your band, give them a clear reference for what you want to sound like, such as "for this band / song / set, we are going for a stripped-down raw sound, like that KISS album 'Dressed to Kill' ". If you don't give them an idea of what you want, you run the risk of a well-meaning FOH operator mixing you to sound like something completely different. Maybe they're really into the sound of Rush or Swedish Death Polka or Brazilian Technofolk. Just remember they will be mixing you while you're onstage, so you want them on your side.

With the AxeFX, I'm delivering a very complex signal to the front of house (FOH) operator. For those shows when we're using the house sound team, I always tell them I'm giving them a fully realized signal via 2 XLR lines, including effects, amps, cabinets, cabinet mics, and room ambience. I also tell them: "you're the FOH sound operator, so please start with a flat EQ on my channels, then do whatever you feel is appropriate to make the overall mix sound good, and after the show, please tell me if you have any suggestions about what I should change in my tone to give you a better / more usable signal". Even if they are skeptical about the AxeFX at first, the FOH operators always tell me after the show that they LOVE the AxeFX, and that it made their mix sound great. The typical feedback I get in terms of suggested changes is usually based on the room physics, such as "this room has a persistent standing wave delay coming off the back wall, and your slapback delay on that one song made the mix a little messy" or "I dialed down some of your low-mids because our subs are kinda muddy".
 
I played my first show with the Axe FX II a few weeks ago and was nervous how it would go. The sound person is a friend of someone that does sound and used their gear for our show. 10 minutes before we start no stage monitors are working and the AXE signal is peaked at the board unless it's off. The other guitar player insists it's my Axe FX so they unplug me from the board and mic one of my CLR wedges. The monitors still don't work and we did the show like that. The next week the bass player says they've never had luck running direct to the board and they want me to bring an amp and cabinet for shows. The AXE works perfectly at the practice studio and my place plugged into the PA. Today I spent the afternoon with a professional sound tech to nail down if there are any issues that need to be dealt with and we found none. He suggested zero EQ changes except possibly a high pass filter during low drop tuned songs. Otherwise he said the EQ in the modeling as used was very good. Tomorrow we're playing again and I'm bringing the AXE. I love having the wedges as my personal monitors that I can control without affecting whats happening at the board. I can hear myself easily without blasting out my band mates.
'
 
Pretty much... If I would have had a wireless I would have done it myself. Now looking at investing in one... LOL.

That would be a smart investment given that situation... That's pretty much how I've dealt with it and for the most part it works pretty good... at least until you need to make an adjustment in the middle of a tune.
 
I played my first show with the Axe FX II a few weeks ago and was nervous how it would go. The sound person is a friend of someone that does sound and used their gear for our show. 10 minutes before we start no stage monitors are working and the AXE signal is peaked at the board unless it's off. The other guitar player insists it's my Axe FX so they unplug me from the board and mic one of my CLR wedges. The monitors still don't work and we did the show like that. The next week the bass player says they've never had luck running direct to the board and they want me to bring an amp and cabinet for shows. The AXE works perfectly at the practice studio and my place plugged into the PA. Today I spent the afternoon with a professional sound tech to nail down if there are any issues that need to be dealt with and we found none. He suggested zero EQ changes except possibly a high pass filter during low drop tuned songs. Otherwise he said the EQ in the modeling as used was very good. Tomorrow we're playing again and I'm bringing the AXE. I love having the wedges as my personal monitors that I can control without affecting whats happening at the board. I can hear myself easily without blasting out my band mates.
'

Press the "pad" button on the board or turn the output down on the axe fx. Then run output 2 to your CLR. That way you can send the board a weaker signal without losing the signal to your CLR.
 
Great question. Coming from a studio perspective, I tend think of discrete roles for the Engineer and the Producer - even if they're they same person who switches hats depending on the day. The Engineer is typically the person who sets up the microphones / lines, get things set up for accurate recording, sets up temporary mixes for multitracking / overdubbing, etc. The Engineer essentially captures the ingredients. The Producer typically is the person who takes those raw ingredients and assembles them into a song. This means the Producer has a role in shaping the tones, adding effects, selecting takes, and even editing the form ("let's cut that third verse for the radio version"). The Producer may be making these changes when the band is not present in the studio. You put a lot of trust in that person, as they can help make or break your masterpiece.

All sound operators have a the basic responsibility of an Engineer. They should be able to take the inputs / mics and assemble a mix based on the relative volumes of each signal. Most reasonably competent sound operators are accustomed to having a Producer's role in the mix. They may decide the bass guitar is too bright and roll off some highs. That lead vocal would be smoother with some compression and plate reverb. Maybe the guitar would benefit from a bit of delay during the solo. Great sound operators are actively mixing the band during the entire show, acting as a +1 member of the band.

Like it or not, the FOH engineer is out of your control during the show. You can send them a signal and say "DON'T CHANGE A DAMNED THING IN MY SIGNAL", which is silly, and an insult to someone who is a good engineer. We want the FOH engineer to be the Producer, to take all the ingredients of the show and mix them together in the way that sounds best for the room. That is very subjective, and because the FOH operator will have their own taste about what YOUR music should sound like, they will have a large degree of impact on the product. If you want to help a Producer who is unfamiliar with your band, give them a clear reference for what you want to sound like, such as "for this band / song / set, we are going for a stripped-down raw sound, like that KISS album 'Dressed to Kill' ". If you don't give them an idea of what you want, you run the risk of a well-meaning FOH operator mixing you to sound like something completely different. Maybe they're really into the sound of Rush or Swedish Death Polka or Brazilian Technofolk. Just remember they will be mixing you while you're onstage, so you want them on your side.

With the AxeFX, I'm delivering a very complex signal to the front of house (FOH) operator. For those shows when we're using the house sound team, I always tell them I'm giving them a fully realized signal via 2 XLR lines, including effects, amps, cabinets, cabinet mics, and room ambience. I also tell them: "you're the FOH sound operator, so please start with a flat EQ on my channels, then do whatever you feel is appropriate to make the overall mix sound good, and after the show, please tell me if you have any suggestions about what I should change in my tone to give you a better / more usable signal". Even if they are skeptical about the AxeFX at first, the FOH operators always tell me after the show that they LOVE the AxeFX, and that it made their mix sound great. The typical feedback I get in terms of suggested changes is usually based on the room physics, such as "this room has a persistent standing wave delay coming off the back wall, and your slapback delay on that one song made the mix a little messy" or "I dialed down some of your low-mids because our subs are kinda muddy".

100% agree with your perspective! Outstanding on the stage plot! We use one every week through a service called Planning Center.

Being a guitar player on a worship team, with an Axe FX, and one of the sound guys at our church, I get to see it from both sides.
It sucks when you get a bad FOH sound guy. Having your own gear is the better for small clubs and bars, and bringing your own sound guy or at least a bud with a set of ears, who can say lead vocal up a notch or guitar down a hair, is important.

I've heard some great local bands, with their own PA's, sound like crap because no one is controlling the sound. They set it and pretty much that's it.

I'm one of the sound guys who has producer mentality. Once I set levels and monitor mixes, I build the FOH mix and then work the board from intro to outro, on every song.
One huge advantage for us is having a PreSonus digital board. I can walk up to stage and mix all monitors right from my iPad. If you have in-ears, I can set your iPhone up so you can mix your own mix. In the old days, it took two people to set monitor levels or running back and forth from the rear of the room. If you're getting a PA, get one where the sound guy can use an iPad to walk the room to mix the house and walk the stage to mix your monitors.

"One other piece of advice. Bring a CD of your band so I can play it through the house system and learn about what your band is supposed to sound like."

As Sleestak pointed out, I control whether you sound like Rush, Kiss or Lawrence Welk... Lawrence Welk? Who is that? You don't wanna know. Believe me...
If I'm hearing you for the first time, I have no idea what you want to sound like.

Not all sound guys suck. A sound guy, who is trying to be professional and produce your sound, has a tough job.
If you can learn to respect them and work with them, you'll be amazed at the result.
 
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Not all sound guys suck. A sound guy, who is trying to be professional and produce your sound, has a tough job. If you work with him/them you'll be amazed at the result.
Not all musicians suck either, but having been on both sides of the stage (FOH long before I started playing), there are good and bad on both sides. Most House sound guys I know do the best they can with what they have. Those who provide the PA and run FOH DEFINITELY do the best they can - it's about repeat business and growing it.

For every story about bad sounds guys, I've got a dozen from the stage side. Too many guitar players have no clue how to "blend" on stage, do the "see! I can turn it to 11!" routine, need to feel pant legs flapping and generally care less about the impact of their volume on the mix.

When running FOH, I've gone over and turned down the lead guitarists master volume (more than once) as their stage volume OBLITERATED the band - albeit after repeatedly asking them to turn down, and being ignored. One guys amp was pointed at his knees, was 2 feet from him and he refused to turn down. "Can't hear me!"..
He came up and chewed me out at the break (blah, blah, rant-n-rave). I told him that he hired me to provide PA for the band and mix them. My job was to make them sound as good as I could, but that took cooperation from the stage, and he was blowing it. He stayed turned down the rest of the night.. and they got HUGE compliments on their sound. Great, right?
I have never worked for them since... :)

MY point.. it's a 2-way street and if you work with the FOH guy, they will mostly work with and for, you !
 
Press the "pad" button on the board or turn the output down on the axe fx. Then run output 2 to your CLR. That way you can send the board a weaker signal without losing the signal to your CLR.

Thanks, I'll give this a shot tomorrow. I'm already running the CLR's in output 2
 
Someone help me out here, as I don't gig, but still am interested in the situations you guys have run into on stage...

How much control does a soundman really have over your tone when using the AxeFx? I thought the idea was to be able to just send him a line out and say "here's my sound. Make it as loud as everyone else on stage." Is it purely a volume thing, or are you talking about a more involved issue?

Rotti,

With EQ and Compression, I can make you sound great, I can make you sound like crap, or I can make you totally disappear from the mix!
The FOH sound engineer has TOTAL CONTROL of what you sound like in the house mix.

If you have a DAW, pick a PEQ, grab a frequency like 500 Hz, move it up 10 db, or down 10 db and sweep it up and down the frequency spectrum....
Roll off the highs at 1K or use the high pass to roll off all the lows... You will hear some awful sounds....

Piss me off and I can make you sound really bad.
 
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What you do in that case is you STOP PLAYING and -- into the microphone -- ask for the changes you need.

Bad mix = don't bother playing because no one is going to enjoy it.

I completely agree and totally do this in the worst scenarios. I'm a sound engineer too and I actually don't feel offended if this happens to me. That said, it really hasn't happened to me :)
 
I have to agree with one caveat. Ask for the changes over the mic in between songs, but NEVER stop a song. Professionals never do except when it's physically impossible to continue. For example, there's a video of youtube of Metallica where Hetfields guitar has no distortion kicking into the big riff on Creeping Death. I also remember an Iron Maiden gig a few years back where Steve Harris bass couldn't be heard during the first song. They finished it and then stopped the show while the problem was sorted out.
 
I hate to say it, but sometimes stopping mid song is the ONLY way to get a sound guy's attention. That's the only time I do it. I think we're mostly talking about the kinda sound guy who doesn't want to be there and doesn't care. If you have you're own guy or someone who is paying attention, yes do it in between songs unless it's unplayable.
 
Rotti,

With EQ and Compression, I can make you sound great, I can make you sound like crap, or I can make you totally disappear from the mix!
The FOH sound engineer has TOTAL CONTROL of what you sound like in the house mix.

If you have a DAW, pick a PEQ, grab a frequency like 500 Hz, move it up 10 db, or down 10 db and sweep it up and down the frequency spectrum....
Roll off the highs at 1K or use the high pass to roll off all the lows... You will hear some awful sounds....

Piss me off and I can make you sound really bad.

So this kinda goes to the heart of my point, why would you want to? I would think word of mouth to be a particularly strong factor in this line of work.
 

No offense, but is this a jaded response or factual?
Hypothetically, if a soundman makes it a point to make me sound bad - the opposite of what one expects in a professional environment - I would in turn warm every musician I know, maybe even going so far as local forums if the venue sees enough live music traffic to warrant. Enough bigger acts pass on gigs there, owners/investors start paying attention to the missed revenue. I don't see any of that as good news for a vendictive FOH man...?
 
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