Some differences between real JP2C and AxeFx models?

S

Snouttrout

Inspired
I own the AxeFx 3, FM9, and the FM3, and I most frequently use the Matrix GT1000FX with real cabinets. I recently sat down the the real JP2C amp and compared it to the FM9 model of that amp. I believe the AxeFx uses a linear graphic EQ and the real JP2C uses an logarithmic graphic EQ . So I turned the graphic EQ off on the real JP2C and AxeFx.

I used the same EQ settings on the real amp and model. Everything was at noon, except the bass, which I set to zero, and the master volume, which was set fairly low on both units (approximately 2/10).

The the most obvious difference to me was that the amp appears to have much less gain. The AxeFx model is much easier to play, and the real amp is less forgiving. (The real amp gets easier to play when you crank the master volume quite a bit. Nonetheless, the Fractal has more gain.) So I tried to reduce the gain on the AxeFx model. However, the real amp is still more punchy, and sounded more three-dimensional to my ears. I'm not trolling fractal. As you can see, I love the fractal stuff, but I'm wondering if there is some user error here.

I have used the trick to find the resonance frequency of my cab (2x12 compact recto), and I use the "SS power amp" setting instead of FRFR.

Note that the AxeFx does not sound bad, but I still prefer the real amp.

Are there any other obvious things I should be doing?
 
One of the things you can try, if you haven't already, is to change the impedance curve. There is a 2x12 Recto IC available, however I suggest not being limited to it. You may find that there is a closer match in an unexpected curve.
There are a lot of factors when it comes to why the Axe model may sound different than a real life counterpart. Those have been discussed on the forum before and I encourage you to check that out, as it is very educational and interesting. Fortunately, the Axe has quite a few parameters that you can tweak to get to where you want to. The Wiki is a great resource and of course the forum has lots of knowledgeable users that can help you out. I know a few members have JP2Cs here and will be able to help you further.
 
I had that amp on loan for a couple weeks and found there wasn't enough difference to justify owning the amp. If I ever need that sound, its there. Dead ringer? If you dial it in and ignore the knob placement, sure. All knobs at noon no, it was a bit different.
 
Snouttrout said:
I own the AxeFx 3, FM9, and the FM3, and I most frequently use the Matrix GT1000FX with real cabinets. I recently sat down the the real JP2C amp and compared it to the FM9 model of that amp. I believe the AxeFx uses a linear graphic EQ and the real JP2C uses an logarithmic graphic EQ . So I turned the graphic EQ off on the real JP2C and AxeFx.

I used the same EQ settings on the real amp and model. Everything was at noon, except the bass, which I set to zero, and the master volume, which was set fairly low on both units (approximately 2/10).

The the most obvious difference to me was that the amp appears to have much less gain. The AxeFx model is much easier to play, and the real amp is less forgiving. (The real amp gets easier to play when you crank the master volume quite a bit. Nonetheless, the Fractal has more gain.) So I tried to reduce the gain on the AxeFx model. However, the real amp is still more punchy, and sounded more three-dimensional to my ears. I'm not trolling fractal. As you can see, I love the fractal stuff, but I'm wondering if there is some user error here.

I have used the trick to find the resonance frequency of my cab (2x12 compact recto), and I use the "SS power amp" setting instead of FRFR.

Note that the AxeFx does not sound bad, but I still prefer the real amp.

Are there any other obvious things I should be doing?
Click to expand...
(I own both)

What you notice is true. That’s why I don’t sell the head . More gain in the axe, the 5 band thing that is completely part of the sound, the real amp breath more… but :
If you record a guitar track with the amp, forget the settings and try to match the sound by ears with the axe you can have something really close

With 5 band removed, yellow shred mode :



But with the 5 band active is another story.
 
My name is mud said:
(I own both)

What you notice is true. That’s why I don’t sell the head . More gain in the axe, the 5 band thing that is completely part of the sound, the real amp breath more… but :
If you record a guitar track with the amp, forget the settings and try to match the sound by ears with the axe you can have something really close

With 5 band removed, yellow shred mode :



But with the 5 band active is another story.
Click to expand...

I don't hear enough difference in this example to matter. I know having the actual amp is awesome and all. I did want one BAD (own a MKV and a Triple REC), but after hearing for myself, I'd need to find a once in a lifetime deal like someone flipping one for a bag of meth or something.
 
I ve spent many time in the forum or at home comparing, speaking about it …
In the end the model based on the JP2c in the axe sound good and it’s the type of sound I like. You can start with it and tweak everything until you have the Tone you like.
I end up realizing that everytime I compare the real deal versus the axe, there is always a small difference . Not that one is better or worse but different . So if you really love a product, buy it, stay with it. The model in the axe don’t have convinced me to sell the real deal, because I don’t have the same pleasure playing with my JP2c stack against the axe in monitors .

@Bruce Sokolovic

In the final result , in a recording, yes it’s close . But the feel you have when you powered up the amp and cab and play through it is different .


Now that I listen to this video, with fresh ears of the morning, I really hear the synthetic artefact from sample 1 that are from the axe.
 
My name is mud said:
I ve spent many time in the forum or at home comparing, speaking about it …
In the end the model based on the JP2c in the axe sound good and it’s the type of sound I like. You can start with it and tweak everything until you have the Tone you like.
I end up realizing that everytime I compare the real deal versus the axe, there is always a small difference . Not that one is better or worse but different . So if you really love a product, buy it, stay with it. The model in the axe don’t have convinced me to sell the real deal, because I don’t have the same pleasure playing with my JP2c stack against the axe in monitors .

@Bruce Sokolovic

In the final result , in a recording, yes it’s close . But the feel you have when you powered up the amp and cab and play through it is different .


Now that I listen to this video, with fresh ears of the morning, I really hear the synthetic artefact from sample 1 that are from the axe.
Click to expand...
Yea I know. When one commits to a modeling platform, there is some level of adjustment needed. As much as the AXE replicates the sound and feel of an amp, playing an amp is still different. Trust me, I have over a dozen here and Im keeping them forever. For my use and ultimately what matters to me is the end resulting audio. I don't mind adjusting my approach a bit to save 3 grand an amp so long as the results are at least close. Fractal hits that mark for me.
 
It’s hard to explain sound with words, even more when you are not English, but the real jp is not soooo agressive sounding in a way. The shred mode is not a metal zone, It don’t have that much gain . You can turn the gain all the way up in the head and it’s still playable . You can have very liquid solos bumping the mid freq in the 5 band eq . The one in the axe is more violent yes .
 
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A friendly reminded that unless you own the JP2C that was modeled by Fractal, any example of the real amp will have some component variance so dialing by putting the knobs in the same positions will not give you the same results. It's better to pick one as a reference tone (e.g your favorite real amp tones) and then dial the Axe-Fx model by ear. The hearing of your eyes is pretty bad. ;)

Also use a decibel meter when comparing amps because if they are not at the same volume you will be reacting to how you hear whichever is louder rather than comparing like for like. Even a phone app will do as you just want a reference and perfect accuracy is not so important as long as you use the same app and phone at the same measuring position.

Finally the poweramp used and if you use different cabs will make a difference. If you happen to own a loadbox, run the JP2C through that into the FM9, then that into the Matrix poweramp so you can compare them using FM9 switching features to switch between amp sim vs JP2C.
 
arw said:
Cabs. Cabs. Cabs.

I'm now convinced that most of "the tone" is in the cab or IR being used.
If you're going through the same physical cab with similar power sections I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
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Absolutely
 
arw said:
Cabs. Cabs. Cabs.

I'm now convinced that most of "the tone" is in the cab or IR being used.
If you're going through the same physical cab with similar power sections I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Click to expand...

This 100% maybe my ears are just bad but I always find it a little funny when people post about tiny differences between an amp and a model when I find the sound changes way more trying a different IR on the same amp than the same IR on a different high gain amp, then periodically Cliff comes in with some properly dialled in A/B samples and no one can tell the difference between the axe and the amp, but here we go again anyways!
 
Don't forget that there is always real tubes vs the Axe Fx tubes.
Unless you put the actual tubes that Cliff had in the real amp.....you will never be exact.
Even if you had the exact brands they can be different, especially in the gain department.
 
When cliff does a comparaison like he does recently he put the same settings in the amp and in the axe . So the components blabla, no thanks .

When you start with the non shred mode ones, using the 5 band and a boost, you are very very close to the real model . Today I played with it in the axe . It sounds good .
 
My name is mud said:
When cliff does a comparaison like he does recently he put the same settings in the amp and in the axe . So the components blabla, no thanks .
Click to expand...
Cliff has the exact amp he used to make the model so there's no surprise you can put in the same settings and get very close to the same result.

Component variance isn't going to make any modern amp sound wildly different from one another but there will be small differences and same pot settings especially won't be a match when there can be 10-20% variance in each of their values.
 
First; IR's are a huge part of the sound -- try several IR's -- pick the best one for you.

Impedance curves are also a huge part of the sound.
Pick the one you like most.
I get subtle results by shifting the low resonant frequency up or down very slightly.

Starter Tweaks to shift an amp model's tone toward the tone in my head:
The first 1-3 tweaks make amps sound different from each other in real life.


1) Try different power tube brands. There are 3 different 6L6 brands available -- try them all.
-- Amp block; Power tubes + CF; Power Tube Type (drop down box)

2) Try different preamp tube brands. There are 8 different 12AX7 brands available -- try them all.
-- Amp block; Preamp; Preamp Tube Type (drop down box)

3) Adjust the Power Tube Bias.
Since you feel the model is gainier, try raising the Power tube bias, first -- if that doesn't work, lower the bias.
-- Amp block; Power tubes + CF; Grid Bias

4) Adjust the Supply Voltage.
Since you feel the model is "gainier," try raising the Variac voltage, first -- if that doesn't work, lower the voltage.
-- Amp block; Power Supply; Variac


Others:

5) Adjust the hardness of the power tubes
-- Amp block; Power tubes + CF; Hardness

6) Adjust the hardness of the preamp tubes
-- Amp block; Preamp; Tube Hardness

7) I tend to like a clearer sound so I usually lower the Xformer drive.
-- Amp block; Power Amp; Xformer Drive


3-Dimensional Cheats (Add Artificial Complexity):

8) Add a Preamp Type in the Cab Block -- use "High-Quality" -- pick the Preamp Type that suits your ear -- try them all.
I generally leave Tone Controls, Drive, and Saturation at 0. That sounds the most transparent.
-- Cab block; Preamp; Preamp Type (drop down box)
-- Cab block; Preamp; Preamp Mode = High Quality (drop down box)


9) Add an LFO to the Variac. Make the MIn/Max range as wide or tight as you like. I vary between +/- 5% to 20%. Set the LFO rate to ~0.3 Hz.
-- Amp block; Power Supply; Variac
Slowly wiggling the power supply feels more real and sounds more complex to me. Who knows? See if you like it.


Tweak through these choices several times. Then, Reset the Preset in Axe-Edit,
-- Preset; Revert Preset
Eventually, you will begin to discover a combination that makes it sound closer to the way you want.

There are other parameters of course. But, I feel like these are kind of fundamental -- but often overlooked.
 
I also have an actual JP2C and can get it to match my mic'd cabinet close enough to not worry about it and it is infinitely easier to play around with different cabinets or mics (that I don't own) than with actual hardware. Being able to save settings for different guitars also reminds me how much I have gotten used to the benefits of the Fractal rather than having to remember or continually tweak pot positions. First rule is to print this and post in on the wall for a reminder of what not to do...
087.jpg
 
To address some of the responses...I am listening through real cabinets, so the differences of sound are coming from real rectifier cabinets. IRs are not the issue. It's hard to explain, but the difference does not appear to be just due to EQ. There is a punchiness that's missing from the AxeFx--at least with my current settings--even a lower volumes. I have adjusted the speaker impendence settings to match those of my cab, and I even tried to estimate the resonant frequency with the method described on the wiki page.

I'll keep working on it. I think I might just accept that I'm going to get two different sounds. I still prefer the sound of the real amp, but I wish I could get the AxeFx to sound more like it when playing through my real cabinets.

Perhaps, what I'm hearing live wouldn't be captured well through a microphone. Maybe I'll try that next.
 
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