Sigh....what to do...

jlynnb1

jlynnb1

Axe-Master
So I have been tweaking and trying to get a great hot-rodded Marshall patch for a long time. Switching amps, cabs, etc The patch isn't the prob....All the patches sound great, lol! The problem is when I switch from my main patch to it the change is so dramatic i almost can't use it.

Here's the deal, I play in a modern country band but we do cover gigs as well. My main patch is the Matchless in the OH Silver 1x12. Sounds fantastic. Period. On the cover gigs I sometimes what a edgier tone for the 80's/90's rock that we do. Whenever I switch over it seems as if they don't cut at all, I feel like I disappear. I'm aware of gainer tones being more compressed etc, I get it...I've been doing this for a long time. I just don't know what I need to do to get there. I have my Matchless patch set up with a couple of drives in front and can get enough gain, it just doesn't have the right vibe to me.

Any ideas....There is already a 3-4db difference between the matchless and the hotter patches i've created (with the hotter patches being louder to compensate for the more compressed tone)
 
There may be many ways to deal with this, someone more experienced than I may have a better suggestion. I personally would try equalization. Get your band together and play as close to gig volume as you can. Play with the parametric and see if boosting any particular frequencies will make it cut. In my experience with overdriven and distorted lead tones, more general volume doesn't help in the mix. You have to find the right frequencies that will make it stand out. Also if you shared your presets, it would be easier to give more specific advice.

Edit: Chris responded while I was typing, sorry for redundancy. Do what he said :D
 
From all I've ever experienced, I agree that by boosting the mids you will begin to cut. But this brings me to a question that is related to the OP's question...

I've never been a fan of mid range in my guitar tones and generally end up pulling them out via EQ. I'm curious how players such as Petrucci who also cut the mids a lot from their tones can cut through the mix so well?


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Jeff B said:
I've never been a fan of mid range in my guitar tones and generally end up pulling them out via EQ. I'm curious how players such as Petrucci who also cut the mids a lot from their tones can cut through the mix so well?
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I second this. I know it's part Fletcher-Munson (in that you usually hear it loud?), but it can't all be that. Is it just good mixes? How can it sound scooped but cut as if it weren't?
 
Since human hearing is most sensitive in the midrange, boosting mids is the easiest way to make an instrument pop out of a dense mix.

It's possible to have a scooped instrument come through a dense mix. It's usually done by working carefully with the attack / transient frequencies. E.g. slow the compression attack to let the attack be more prominent or use a parallel comp setup to really over emphasize just the attack portion.

If you have control of the whole mix, try some small cuts around 600-650 cycles on the channels that are masking the Marshall patch. That can let you keep the balls of your Marshall patch and not get into too "telephone" sounding by over boosting the mids to cut through.

Also, try setting your Marshall patch WAY louder that you think you need and play with a softer touch. Sometimes all it takes is just volume to get you over the top of the mix. It can sound like too much but with a soft touch you can ride over the whole mix. Using your gtr volume control really makes this method work too.
 
You might find that 3-4 db boost for your higher gain amps is just not enough and you simply need more. I usually have to set my dirty amps higher to get them close to the cleans in perceived sound level.
 
Jeff B said:
I've never been a fan of mid range in my guitar tones and generally end up pulling them out via EQ. I'm curious how players such as Petrucci who also cut the mids a lot from their tones can cut through the mix so well?
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I'm mainly a metal guy, so I also like mid-scooped guitar tones. Yes, you can avoid getting buried in the mix by adding mids, but IMO the preferred approach is to apply a similar scoop to most of the other instruments that live in the midrange: other guitars and bass for sure, probably keys, bass drum and toms if needed, but probably not snare and definitely not vocals. This works fine for recording, but it could require some diplomacy to convince other musicians in the band to change their tones to work well with yours live.
 
For all the complaints about Vintage 30s, there is a reason they've sold millions of them.
 
I agree with the general consensus about boosting mids of some sort. I've found that different higher gain amps cut through better than others, probably because of a mid spike happening naturally in the amp. Lately, I've been using a preset for metal tones where my rhythm patch is something like the Das Metall, but the scene for solos is the 5150 Red. Without much tweaking, there is a definite difference in projection. Also, less gain can help.
 
simeon said:
post a patch. what some people think of as lots of mids, other people think of as scooped.

also, which ir's are you using?
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i'll post a patch this evening. as for ir's, used the TV mix forever, then played around with the OH v30's a bit but found them too aggressive/tight/modern sounding...so i've been using the HB55 or G65 from the OH vintage 4x12 or a combo of the two in a stereo cab.
 
you know, all this talk of more mids, less mids, cut this, boost that...it's all academic really. if you're not loud enough, turn up a bit. add 2db on to the patch volume and see how you go. you're a guitarist...you're supposed to be too loud...it's the law.
 
simeon said:
you know, all this talk of more mids, less mids, cut this, boost that...it's all academic really. if you're not loud enough, turn up a bit. add 2db on to the patch volume and see how you go. you're a guitarist...you're supposed to be too loud...it's the law.
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hah!! agreed.

i guess the part that's troublesome is my matchless patch cuts like a freaking laser beam...in a good way. it's just THERE. in your face. trying to get the same with my others....perhaps its kids, more volume, a combo....maybe i'm using too much gain. i'll post my patches later.
 
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