Should we be trying to do the soundman's job?

I've heard even the top name producers and audio engineers say that they tend not to do anything to the guitar sound because they assume the guitarist already spent a lot of time getting the sound just like he wants it. Actually they're even a bit afraid of messing with someones guitar tone. Remember that mixing priority order is 1) vocals 2) kick 3) snare 4) the rest which is where overheads, bass, guitar etc belong. So let's say your soundcheck lasts an hour. How much time do you think will be spent on getting the guitar "just perfect" even when there's a professional live engineer mixing the show? You might get a quick lowcut and volume level check and you're set.
 
My experience, been gigging since the 70's, is:

1. If the sound people are good, you don't have to tell them how to do their job. Just act professional and let them do their thing.

2. If the sound people are bad, no amount of hassling, explanation, or trying to teach then about audio at the show is going to make much difference once the show starts. And if you get all frustrated with them, they probably won't give you even their best effort during the show.

For festivals where you are not the headliner, there are strict time constraints for loading in, playing and loading out. I try to be prepared. Know my rig inside and out and be able to setup, tear down and diagnose and fix audio issues fast. I also like to keep the rig as simple as I can; especially if it's only one set.

I bring my own powered wedge and small mixer to mix from the stage. I recently upgraded from a small format Mackie to a Rane rackmount mixer thanks to a post by @hippietim on TPG I think? anyway really cool piece of kit that will let me mix my vocal, my guitar, the lead vocalist's guitar and still have one more channel for an aux mix if I need it; all with a decent 3-band EQ per channel. Will be playing a big local festival soon and testing it out.... no dependency on the festival monitor mix!

I go for a balanced tone and don't try to cut too much low end. I favor the mellow side of the treble as I find really knarly spiky presets to get fatiguing playing a long show with FRFR.
 
Back when I was playing for a living and using tube amps, I relied on the stage engineer and the FOH guys to take care of what the audience heard. Call me old fashioned, but I liked it and still like it that way. I remember a few times where a fan would come to our booth or greenroom and ask me how I got my guitar to sound so fat in the mix. I said, "I just set my tone to sound good to me onstage. You need to go ask the soundguys. They're the ones who add the magic." ;)
 
s0c9 said:
To be fair, there's as many guitar, bass and keys players in that category as there are sound guys.. IME - it's a wash, given there's usually only one of them out front.
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Definitely. Most of the sound techs at the gigs I've been to have been great, or at least receptive if you're respectful. There are always a few, though, who think of themselves as sound gods and have already started channel EQ on everything before they even hear it.

Then there's the guitar player with the half stack that "only sounds good when it's cranked." I've run sound plenty, and those guys are just as much a pain.

Finding a great FOH guy is adding that last missing band member. They really add to the music.
 
Lionheart said:
Back when I was playing for a living and using tube amps, I relied on the stage engineer and the FOH guys to take care of what the audience heard. Call me old fashioned, but I liked it and still like it that way. I remember a few times where a fan would come to our booth or greenroom and ask me how I got my guitar to sound so fat in the mix. I said, "I just set my tone to sound good to me onstage. You need to go ask the soundguys. They're the ones who add the magic." ;)
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that's always been my approach too…
I do my thing, and the sound guy does his..
I make my sound the best it can be for me on stage so I feel a good and a comfortable as I can
then I know I'm best placed to give the best performance I possibly can
also.. I make a deliberate effort to get to know / get along with the sound guy, the crew and the venue staff..
it makes for plenty of smiles and a nicer working environment..
the aim is simple.. keep everything as relaxed, happy and feeling good all round as is possible..
it's easier and far more fun to go out and entertain when the vibes are all in the right place
 
s0c9 said:
To be fair, there's as many guitar, bass and keys players in that category as there are sound guys.. IME - it's a wash, given there's usually only one of them out front.
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reminds me of something I heard once when I worked in a studio in London [as a sound guy.. lol..]

what's the difference between a sound engineer and a toilet?
the toilet only has to deal with one asshole at a time
 
clarky said:
reminds me of something I heard once when I worked in a studio in London [as a sound guy.. lol..]

what's the difference between a sound engineer and a toilet?
the toilet only has to deal with one asshole at a time
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HILARIOUS !!! LOL :D
 
My band is taking this to the next level.....;)

At our next show at the Anaheim House of Blues, We are running all of our inputs to our Behringer XR-18 mixer. Sending our 3 monitor mixes to them to be routed only to the 3 front wedges' and 1 mono main mix (they won't do stereo) to the FOH.

Our mics, our mix, our EQ, our compressors and gates, our effects, our monitor mixes......We are expecting some scoffing, some rolling eyes, some bruised egos, and maybe some sabotage? But we have worked very hard on our individual and collective sound and it defines us as much as our playing and we want it preserved.

Running a split snake and self running in-ear mixes is becoming more common and with all of the digital mixers on the market right now, I would expect this next step to become more common?
 
Things change as technology changes. There is always resistance. There used to be a elevator operators, phone operators, and even vacuum tube guitar amplifiers with paper speaker that had to be mic'd by a qualified technician to be recorded or heard in large live situations!............crazy, I know;)
 
shit in, shit out. I try to make my patches as perfectly dialed in as possible. Frankly as a sound guy myself, i try to give the guys/girls mixing me a sound they can just push up and it's ready to go. They shouldn't really even need to compress or EQ my sound if they don't want.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
But what if they don't make it sound good?

Typically with real amps, loud on stage, we have no idea what the audience is hearing since we are sounding great where we are standing. A huge flaw in logic early on with the "real amps vs Axe" augments was that real amps are easier because you simply put a mic on a real amp/cab and it instantly sounds good because I know what the amp/cab sounds like... But many of these people never heard what FOH actually sounded like. I asked some people to have someone else play their guitar and go out to the audience and many were shocked at how different it sounded because it was now the sound guy's interpretation of what it should sound like, or bad mic placement, etc.

Many "sound engineers" have pre-determined thoughts of what instruments should sound like too. It's a flaw in how they were taught to do sound, probably by another "sound engineer." Vocal mic? Turn up the highs a bit. Acoustic guitar? Turn up lows and highs. Bass guitar? Turn down all the highs and boost the lows. Electric guitar? Turn up highs so it cuts through the mix... All without even hearing the instrument first.

Doing sound is hard because you're supposed to be adapting to the system and room to allow the instruments to sound as intended. Too many sound guys CHANGE the sound of the instruments to fit within what their interpretation of a band should be.

I typically have a fat/full electric sound, I hate shrill distortion. A sound guy here at a particular club knows nothing of rock or dist guitar sound except "a punk album [he] heard once." I played my guitar and he immediately killed all my lows and boosted my highs. With the axe, I can turn off my stage sound and just hear the FOH. Even from the stage I was like WTF did you do to my sound? He said oh you're playing electric guitar it's supposed to sound like this. We talked/argued for a while and I finally got him to me my EQ flat and then my tone came back. After the gig he said "wow I had no idea guitar could sound like that."

This is why I try to control my sound as much as possible. And not be at the mercy of the sound guy. Remember, the audience hears the FOH system. If you sound bad there, the audience will think you are a bad guitarist or that the band sounds bad, even if on stage is sounding amazing.
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Hawai.
 
Moke said:
Running a split snake and self running in-ear mixes is becoming more common and with all of the digital mixers on the market right now, I would expect this next step to become more common?
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We've been doing EXACTLY that for close to 2 yrs now.. We're a pretty busy weekend warrior band - 6 gigs left this month, 8 booked in April.
We're all IEM (but for one with at wedge).
For house-provided PA (still using our mics, cables, etc.) we split from house snake and map into our X32. 4 stereo IEM output mixes - all going to Senn G3 IEM wireless transmitters in same rack - but with drummer using a P16M, and one guy on a powered wedge o_O.
All IEM/monitor mixes (except drummer) individually controlled via iDevice/Android apps. 2nd rack (Amps + DSP) left behind, and only used when we provide the PA.
Same setup each time, full stereo IEM mixes that require minimal tweaking at each gig. Basically, plug-in, power up and go!

AWESOME stuff this digital technology !!
 
I have toured for years upon years, and one thing is an absolute constant fact: 2 of 3 house sound men have ZERO interest in your opinion on "their" room. They are going to mix and blend you however you see fit. You don't know this building, dude. He's been there for 127 years and got asked to tour with Roxette once, so take it down a notch and give him his Gaff tape back!
1-Use your axefx like an amp. have your stage sound the way YOU like it and make sure you can hear yourself WITHOUT their monitors.
2-do NOT crank your amp super loud!! The way into a soundmans heart is for him NOT to hear you. Some people will debate this but they are wrong.
3-if you are able to, notify him you have an AxefxII before your set time without bugging him while he's mixing another band. How dare you interrupt his dubious efforts at sonically satisfying the paying droves.
4- give him your XLR output(s) and show him that you have XLR>1/4" adapters IN YOUR HAND. THis is when you VERY politely ask him to flatten your channel.
5- keep your boost channel under 3db. When you come out blazing a solo and your boost channel blows the soundman away he's going to jump to the sound desk and turn you down. For the whole set. Trust gone.

I'm sure you know all of this crap but it must be repeated again and again. Unless you bring your own soundman(diplomat) there is no assurance that the sound guy knows that you rehearsed for hours, took time off work, invited 125 friends, promoted on radio and online, called in favors, gave away your drink tickets, and brushed your hair for this event.
 
As a sound guy heres generally my thought process when dealing with random bands.

I am going to run them as flat as possible for everything input wise. Unless i really need to notch individual inputs for feedback reasons I generally don't do it at the channel. Even more so for instruments. If i am not familiar with your music ahead of time and you didn't have a desire to reach out to me to help you sound like album or a preferred live recording. I am generally going to do my best to make sure that your not harsh and uncomfortable to the establishment i am working for.

If you have a low stage(or moderate) volume and aren't having a monitor war because of defness, I will definitely do my best during the night to appease your mix changes. If you want to hand me preferred DI's and Mic's or even instruments outputs great. Just don't blow up my board doing it. As long as you don't show up late and aren't dicks about your demands chances are I will do my best to make sure people can hear as evenly as possible what your doing.

If your band has a preset monitor mixer that you want to run great, even better when your dealing with inears. Its really hard running a FOH mix and dealing with in ears sometimes. Cause stereo mix's get really complex and do require a good deal of tweaking and time.

You have to also remember, as a sound guy working for an establishment, if your bringing a crowd my job depends a good deal on making you able to be heard. While there is only so much i can do (sorry i can't cure people that don't know how to use a mic correctly, or have time to fix your tone if its really bad). If in the off chance I have to eq your instrument some, Its probably due to feedback control Not cause I think i know better than you.
 
Moke said:
But we have worked very hard on our individual and collective sound and it defines us as much as our playing and we want it preserved.
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What you have worked very hard at, was in a given context. No two venues are the same. Your sound that you want preserved, will be subject to a lot of variables. And that's where the experience of the FOH guy comes in. Even if that FOH guy does everything that you say and doesn't touch anything with your band's "collective sound", it's not going to sound the way you think coming out of the mains. Trust the sound guys. Build that relationship.
 
Moke said:
I've never met an elevator operator or phone operator either.........lol;)
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I once stayed in a (cheap) hotel in Miami that had one elevator operator - He was at work from 7 AM to 5 PM - outside those hours there was no elevator service.

We run everything to our iPad controlloed Mackie DL32r mixer with IEMs and most of the time our own PA. When we play house PAs, we just run the output of the DL32r to the input on their system. If there is no sound guy, we do some master EQ to account for the speakers and the room. If there is a sound guy, we hand him an iPad. Every once in a while we come to a place, where the venue has a huge setup and a crew to handle it - then we just play by their rules, and we are happy.

My patches are 'mix' ready, but I do find myself tweaking the channel EQ a bit in some venues, and my patches have minimal reverb, so I can add a little at the mixer, if needed.
 
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