Setting levels for an external loop

toesalad

toesalad

Inspired
I understand the basic recommendations for setting levels in a preset, after reading through the manual, and also having purchased the Cooper Carter master class (though I haven't finished that yet!). Something I am struggling with a bit at the moment though is what the best practice is for setting levels when using the input/output 2 as an effects loop. I have a Boss RC-500 looper pedal that I have been putting through the effects loop, and I am never sure what the best way to level things is.

When I setup a preset with the blocks: bunch-of-stuff -> output 2 -> input 2 -> output 1, with cables going direct from ouptut 2 -> input 2 (no device) just to observe the default levels, I see that there is a boost happening somewhere. I am assuming that this is just a side-effect of going through the loop? Assuming this volume boost is a fact of life, when I am dialling in my preset levels, what should I be optimizing for? I assume that the important level to watch is output 1, as it is going to my monitors. The fact that the level of output 2 is much lower than output 1 shouldn't matter right?
 
Is output 2 mirroring output 1? I believe that happened to me when I set up my 4cm cuz I was originally using output 2 to go to headphones (no headphone fm3).
 
Input 2 / Output 2 is designed for Unity gain operations with the Output 2 knob at 100%.

You can test by replacing your external loop pedal with just a cable. The returning signal level should be exactly the same level.

The Boss loopers have one or more ways to adjust the level. I suspect that's where it's happening.
 
alfaphlex said:
Is output 2 mirroring output 1? I believe that happened to me when I set up my 4cm cuz I was originally using output 2 to go to headphones (no headphone fm3).
Click to expand...
When you have an Output 2 block it overrides Copy Output 1 setting, so that shouldn't matter.
 
unix-guy said:
When you have an Output 2 block it overrides Copy Output 1 setting, so that shouldn't matter.
Click to expand...
Thanks for pointing that out. I set up my FM3 in 4cm when I first got my unit about a year ago and had a similar volume issue. Sorted it out but can't remember exactly what it was I had to change.
 
unix-guy said:
You can test by replacing your external loop pedal with just a cable. The returning signal level should be exactly the same level.
Click to expand...

As stated in my original post, that is what I did, and I see output 1 shows a much higher level than output 2. Even if I create a new patch, with input1 to output2 to input2 to output1, with just a patch cabe, I see the level much higher on output1.
 
dtougas said:
As stated in my original post, that is what I did, and I see output 1 shows a much higher level than output 2. Even if I create a new patch, with input1 to output2 to input2 to output1, with just a patch cabe, I see the level much higher on output1.
Click to expand...
Sorry... Not enough coffee before replying.

You say "I see a boost somewhere". Are you saying that using a "null" loop (just a cable) in the preset has more level than without it?

Are you running those blocks in parallel? If so, that will add 6dB.

Otherwise, check the Meters view in the grid and you should see where.
 
dtougas said:
As stated in my original post, that is what I did, and I see output 1 shows a much higher level than output 2. Even if I create a new patch, with input1 to output2 to input2 to output1, with just a patch cabe, I see the level much higher on output1.
Click to expand...

What firmware are you using?

I'm on 3.02, and I have a similar but opposite issue. With just a pair of short 3" TS cables patching Output 2 to Input 1, I can't achieve unity gain. Engaging the loop (turning on the In 2 block) lowers my signal at Output 1 by ~3.76 dB. This is a test running a 1kHz sine wave at 0.0 dB from the synth block. With the loop disengaged, the audio interface sees -18 dBFS from Output 1 as expected. With the loop engaged, it sees -22 dBFS (it rounds). On the FM3 Preset Leveling meters, the numbers go from -6 dB to -9.7 dB.

Output 2 Copy is off, and I've tried every Input 2 Pad setting as well as every Out 2 Config Boost/Pad and Mode. Also tried different cables of course, both TS and TRS. I've made sure the Out 2 knob is all the way up (indeed it is, and indeed turning it down does lower the output even further).

The easy fix for me is to increase the level of the In 2 block by 1.88 dB (so for the stereo test signal, that increases the total block output by 3.76 dB). Now when I engage or disengage the loop, I have achieved unity gain on the grid from synth block - Out 2 - In 2 - Out 1.

You could do the same by lowering the output of the In 2 block. Of course you could also lower the physical Out 2 knob, but it's less precise (and prone to bumping).
 
philipacamaniac said:
What firmware are you using?

I'm on 3.02, and I have a similar but opposite issue. With just a pair of short 3" TS cables patching Output 2 to Input 1, I can't achieve unity gain. Engaging the loop (turning on the In 2 block) lowers my signal at Output 1 by ~3.76 dB. This is a test running a 1kHz sine wave at 0.0 dB from the synth block. With the loop disengaged, the audio interface sees -18 dBFS from Output 1 as expected. With the loop engaged, it sees -22 dBFS (it rounds). On the FM3 Preset Leveling meters, the numbers go from -6 dB to -9.7 dB.

Output 2 Copy is off, and I've tried every Input 2 Pad setting as well as every Out 2 Config Boost/Pad and Mode. Also tried different cables of course, both TS and TRS. I've made sure the Out 2 knob is all the way up (indeed it is, and indeed turning it down does lower the output even further).

The easy fix for me is to increase the level of the In 2 block by 1.88 dB (so for the stereo test signal, that increases the total block output by 3.76 dB). Now when I engage or disengage the loop, I have achieved unity gain on the grid from synth block - Out 2 - In 2 - Out 1.

You could do the same by lowering the output of the In 2 block. Of course you could also lower the physical Out 2 knob, but it's less precise (and prone to bumping).
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure there's a known issue with Output 2 level being lower on 3.02... but it might be a different FW.
 
Just to be clear about what I am seeing... here is a quick patch I setup from scratch. Nothing but inputs and outputs with short patch cables between output 2 and input 2. As you can see from the level meters, the output 2 level is around -20 dB and the output 1 level is around -3 dB. The output level knob is all the way up. Output 2 copy is set to NONE. I am running the latest firmware (3.02).

Is this normal? Or if not, are there some other settings somewhere that could be influencing this?
 

Attachments

  • levels.png
    levels.png
    494.4 KB · Views: 7
  • patch.png
    patch.png
    199.6 KB · Views: 7
dtougas said:
Just to be clear about what I am seeing... here is a quick patch I setup from scratch. Nothing but inputs and outputs with short patch cables between output 2 and input 2. As you can see from the level meters, the output 2 level is around -20 dB and the output 1 level is around -3 dB. The output level knob is all the way up. Output 2 copy is set to NONE. I am running the latest firmware (3.02).

Is this normal? Or if not, are there some other settings somewhere that could be influencing this?
Click to expand...
Output 2 and Output 1 are not the same.

Output 1 is much louder by design.

Output 2 copy has NO effect when there is an Output 2 block in the preset.
 
Ah I misunderstood, I thought @dtougas was saying his Out 2 was being boosted when using the loop.

Yes, Out 1 is hotter than Out 2 by design, unless you use Out 2 Copy without an Out 2 block. It surprised me too at first, because of the difference in behavior from Axe Fx II and AX8 that I was familiar with.

unix-guy said:
I'm pretty sure there's a known issue with Output 2 level being lower on 3.02... but it might be a different FW.
Click to expand...
I read a few posts alluding to that but I didn’t want to assume it was a bug. Clearly Out 2 is supposed to be lower than Out 1 but it should be passing unity from the grid when going back into In 2, and it ain’t.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom