Rush - Limelight Double Tone Match for 12.03

[yyz67]

BTW, scene 8 in the latest preset (post #37) gets close to the clean part of the Limelight chorus. It has the first FIL block down -3dB to clean up the HiWatt a bit.

Might not need that with a Strat.

 

[yyz67]

A quick Witch Hunt clip using the "Sparklier" Scene (of post #37) with more chorus.

 

[yyz67]

Another attempt at the solo scene. Does it sound closer (minus my playing and lack of tremolo)?

 

[Admin M@]

And here's my little gift of sonic archaeology for the day. This small loop tells you everything you need to know about the delay times and feedback structure for the solo in Limelight. Using steep filters, I isolated a little chirp in a narrow band around 500 Hz (listen for a sound like a seal's bark in the Soundcloud short audio loop below). Laying this clip alongside the time ruler in Logic, we see that the first echo on the left is at ~580 ms, followed by an echo on the right at 1000 ms. The left echo feeds itself and the right echo. It's not a normal ping pong in other words because the first ping is missing (pong, ping-pong, ping-pong, etc.). From what I remember, there was a ping-pong delay in some (Roland?) echo units, where, unlike the Axe-Fx, the "right/left time ratio" could be set higher than 100%. Never fear: we have the dual delay, which is even better! Settings follow, below.

Here's the audio:


And here's a visual showing the dry (green) left echoes (orange) and right echoes (red)



Finally, here are the delay block settings to reproduce this sound. You can clearly hear reverb as well, but I haven't gotten there.

 

[yyz67]

Holy moly Matt, great sleuthing! Will try that.

Funny that Alex says live his settings are 480/680 but if it really was recorded outside with mountain echoes, who knows. Or maybe the delay was inline and the mountains provided reverb.

 

[Chiguete]

@Admin M@ This thread just made me 100% sure that I will upgrade from the AX8! But I have a serius question, for this Rush tone that we are discussing here do you think that getting an FM3 vs an AXE-FX3 will prevent me on playing with what you guys are commin up with? What I'm really asking is if you expect that the features not present in the FM3 are needed (dual amp playing at the same time, TM, etc?

I've saved $$$ for the FC6 and I just have to sell my AX8 to get the FM3 (waiting for the second batch because I need the audio interace in it) but to go with the AXE-FX3 it would too much for my pocket .

 

[Admin M@]

@Admin M@ for this Rush tone that we are discussing here do you think that getting an FM3 vs an AXE-FX3 will prevent me on playing with what you guys are commin up with?

My preset uses two amps in every scene, so it is firmly in Axe-Fx III territory. That said, I'll do an FM3 version just for you if you need one.

 

[Admin M@]

Funny that Alex says live his settings are 480/680

Take from that what you will. I stand firmly by my numbers and posted the evidence to back them up.

 

[Bman]

Redid the tone matching with no cabs. Now to both the Left and Right channels of the iso track: Plexi for left and a Hi Watt for right. The Plexi/L is more distorted while the HiWatt is a little cleaner.

Tweaked the solo delays (more subtle) w/ A/D flanger and with a PEQ that gives a more liquid tone.

This sounds killer to me right now (with my guitar - still sloppy):



Two IRs for L/R go into the CAB blocks. U1.0015 into the upper CAB and U1.0017 into the lower CAB.
Added a Filter at the beginning to control level hitting the chain.
Scene 8 with just the HiWatt could be used for the cleaner strat sound near the end of the chorus, esp with FIL ch A (-3dB) or B (-6dB) on.

View attachment 64395

This tone sounds killer for Limelight! I don't think it's spot on because I think it sounds better!!! To my ears the real song has a bit more compression, like the chords are tighter. This has the tonal character but to my ears sounds better because it has some oomph, for lack of a better word.

Has anyone else noticed that the Moving Pictures version of Limelight is not tuned exactly to A440? It irks me because Tom Sawyer is. I have a standard tuning playlist and a Eb playlist. Unfortunately, I can't add Limelight and I love playing that song. I usually play along to a backing track version I downloaded a long time ago from the old Backing Tracks website.

 

[Bman]

Take from that what you will. I stand firmly by my numbers and posted the evidence to back them up.

Is it possible that the tract is speed up, which goes back to why it's slightly not in tune?

 

[Admin M@]

Has anyone else noticed that the Moving Pictures version of Limelight is not tuned exactly to A440?

Yeah, that's been tweaking me too, just because you can't play along.

 

[Bman]

Yeah, that's been tweaking me too, just because you can't play along.

Exactly. I spent two years of my life locked in my bedroom playing to Under Lock and Key and now discovered that album is also slightly out of tune with Eb. It totally jacks up a playlist. Plus I have to use my Les Paul so I can tune to it and Lynch requires a whammy. These guys clearly weren't thinking ahead when they made these decisions.

 

[Admin M@]

Is it possible that the tract is speed up, which goes back to why it's slightly not in tune?

Not to the tune of 20ms (=9.6%) = 455 Hz

 

[yyz67]

This thread just made me 100% sure that I will upgrade from the AX8!

Cool! I think it goes to how versatile and tweakable the III (and FM3) is -- and the ingenuity of FAS (like Matt's deduction of the delay times) and user community.

What I'm really asking is if you expect that the features not present in the FM3 are needed (dual amp playing at the same time, TM, etc?

I don't think dual amps are necessary, just a nice addition. Recording you could always add more layers with some tone/effect tweaks. I think Alex had 2-3 guitars going for most of the chorus/verse stuff. Live, it's probably not as critical and there are plenty of ways to fill out a stereo field if needed.

For the tone match, you could use one of Matt's, mine, or other folk's TM IRs (I included two in post 34) with the appropriate guitar/pu. Or if you have someone near you with a III you could match your guitar(s), then save off the IRs and use them.

 

[yyz67]

This tone sounds killer for Limelight! I don't think it's spot on because I think it sounds better!!!

Thanks.

Regarding the solo, I used to think I knew how to play it (sans whammy bar) but then I watched Alex's explanation and a couple things don't seem to match the isolated version which I think is studio version--but it seems tuned to A440, so I don't know. Anyway, I keep playing the solo slightly wrong LOL. Plus I need to get lighter gauge strings so I'm not working so hard on the bends/vibrato

I'm trying to TM the solo now but that is harder if I'm not right on his timing (using TM Live mode). Offline mode didn't seem to work well at all.

 

[PincoTech]

And here's my little gift of sonic archaeology for the day. This small loop tells you everything you need to know about the delay times and feedback structure for the solo in Limelight. Using steep filters, I isolated a little chirp in a narrow band around 500 Hz (listen for a sound like a seal's bark in the Soundcloud short audio loop below). Laying this clip alongside the time ruler in Logic, we see that the first echo on the left is at ~580 ms, followed by an echo on the right at 1000 ms. The left echo feeds itself and the right echo. It's not a normal ping pong in other words because the first ping is missing (pong, ping-pong, ping-pong, etc.). From what I remember, there was a ping-pong delay in some (Roland?) echo units, where, unlike the Axe-Fx, the "right/left time ratio" could be set higher than 100%. Never fear: we have the dual delay, which is even better! Settings follow, below.

Here's the audio:


And here's a visual showing the dry (green) left echoes (orange) and right echoes (red)

View attachment 64468

Finally, here are the delay block settings to reproduce this sound. You can clearly hear reverb as well, but I haven't gotten there.

View attachment 64469

And here's my little gift of sonic archaeology for the day. This small loop tells you everything you need to know about the delay times and feedback structure for the solo in Limelight. Using steep filters, I isolated a little chirp in a narrow band around 500 Hz (listen for a sound like a seal's bark in the Soundcloud short audio loop below). Laying this clip alongside the time ruler in Logic, we see that the first echo on the left is at ~580 ms, followed by an echo on the right at 1000 ms. The left echo feeds itself and the right echo. It's not a normal ping pong in other words because the first ping is missing (pong, ping-pong, ping-pong, etc.). From what I remember, there was a ping-pong delay in some (Roland?) echo units, where, unlike the Axe-Fx, the "right/left time ratio" could be set higher than 100%. Never fear: we have the dual delay, which is even better! Settings follow, below.

Here's the audio:


And here's a visual showing the dry (green) left echoes (orange) and right echoes (red)

View attachment 64468

Finally, here are the delay block settings to reproduce this sound. You can clearly hear reverb as well, but I haven't gotten there.

View attachment 64469

Thank you!!!

That "seal bark ghosty thing" had me pondering for hours the other night.
Cant wait to try this Audio Forensic reconstruction...... like now

 

[PincoTech]

And here's my little gift of sonic archaeology for the day. This small loop tells you everything you need to know about the delay times and feedback structure for the solo in Limelight. Using steep filters, I isolated a little chirp in a narrow band around 500 Hz (listen for a sound like a seal's bark in the Soundcloud short audio loop below). Laying this clip alongside the time ruler in Logic, we see that the first echo on the left is at ~580 ms, followed by an echo on the right at 1000 ms. The left echo feeds itself and the right echo. It's not a normal ping pong in other words because the first ping is missing (pong, ping-pong, ping-pong, etc.). From what I remember, there was a ping-pong delay in some (Roland?) echo units, where, unlike the Axe-Fx, the "right/left time ratio" could be set higher than 100%. Never fear: we have the dual delay, which is even better! Settings follow, below.

Here's the audio:


And here's a visual showing the dry (green) left echoes (orange) and right echoes (red)

View attachment 64468

Finally, here are the delay block settings to reproduce this sound. You can clearly hear reverb as well, but I haven't gotten there.

View attachment 64469

Admin M@
Anymore info on the other 3 tabs of the delay block, like EQ, or modulation to get that hollow inner sound. Seal bark too perhaps lol .

Hungry like a wolf over here for parameters.

 

[yyz67]

 

[Chiguete]

My preset uses two amps in every scene, so it is firmly in Axe-Fx III territory. That said, I'll do an FM3 version just for you if you need one.

This will be the first thing I'll play when I get the FM3!

 

[Chiguete]

My preset uses two amps in every scene, so it is firmly in Axe-Fx III territory. That said, I'll do an FM3 version just for you if you need one.

Maybe this is asking too much but... is there a way to ask Alex if he used multiple amps for this tone? Maybe since the 4140 amp is not modelled in the missing link for this tone (together with the red Mackenzie speakers IR???) for just use a 1 amp setup in a preset.

Also I have a bit of added info on this tone, a couple of years ago I was in contact with Freddy Frets, he is the luthier that makes the Hentor Sportscaster replicas and he is a close friend of Alex, well I asked him about Alex tone and he told me this:

"The 4104 club and country amps were stock. 80 watt celestions. He used them for both clean and distortion sounds. They were not very gainy amps, but they were very loud with a lot of clean headroom (just like the Hiwatts). He would run them so that they just started to break up. From there, he could roll his volume back and get very clean sounds or kick in a distortion pedal (MXR) for leads (Moving Pictures was C&C with MXR Dist+, but as I said, not a lot of gain from the MXR, just enough to push the amp hard). But he ran the amps cleaner than you might think. The sustain came from sheer volume interacting with the guitar. That’s how he got that very punchy, slap you in the face attack!

Back in the Hiwatt days he ran them with celestions....not sure of the model but probably 65s. He also ran the Canadian modded Hiwatts which had more gain."