Returning from the Kemper swamp - back to the Axe!

[Jason Scott]

So, what makes the Kemper's capture format better than the Axe-Fx's capture format?

I don't know enough about how the KPA's cab profiling actually works to offer a proper, educated guess. It may have something to do with capturing the interaction between the amp and cab as a whole. Whatever it is, many of their cabs sound fantastic, to me anyway.

 

[electronpirate]

Since this is more of a Kemper discussion, moving.

 

[Soultrash]

You are not the only one, I prefer to shoot IRs of the Kemper and use them in the Axe.

this could be something, well as i said i do not know anything about the techniques used all i can see that the hi gain metal tones i've heard
from the KEMPER so far are really spot on, they are present but not fizzy, strong in the bottom end but not boomy and most important the mids are clear. with the AXE FX it's the exact opposite.

There's nothing odd about it. I do the same thing. The Kemper has some great sounding cabs.

is there anything you could share?

No. When you profile an amplifier / cabinet with the KPA, it stores the cabinet portion of the rig in its own format within the profile. That cabinet portion is simply referred to as a cab even though it's basically an IR in a proprietary format.

the KEMPER capturing technique seems quite a different approach when i think of that sweeping UFO like kemper test tones

for example when measuring room acoustics the longer the test tone the more accurate the measure will be.

when i see people doing cab IR'y they always use a very short sweep,
it always feels like there is not even enough tie for the cab and mic to react properly to the source sound, but yeah
technical noob here so i am probably wrong.

I don't know enough about how the KPA's cab profiling actually works to offer a proper, educated guess. It may have something to do with capturing the interaction between the amp and cab as a whole. Whatever it is, many of their cabs sound fantastic, to me anyway.

see post above!

 

[Winther]

dude, you can not imagine how i'd love to do this. i could order a tube head and a 4x12 instantly but unfortunately i have no money.
well, fortunately i do have plenty of money to buy several tube heads but unfortunately i have no money for a place to crank them up

The digital world is different - we can all claim that this or that amp is captured to perfection but at the end of the day the tone is being created in very different way and probably has different characteristics. If you can't make peace with the Axe, and it sounds like you have made lots of effort, I really wouldn't look at just a different digital solution.

Did you ever consider a tube amp through an isolation cabinet? I've heard fantastic recordings from iso cabs and this way you can keep the signal analog all the way to your interface. Mind you that Randall iso's on the market only dampen some 29db and you are better off building one yourself to make it box-in-a-box.

If noise is still an issue you can combine it with an amp with Vario load like the Bugera Trirec. It adjusts steplessly from 100 down to 1 watts to allow getting to that break-up sweet spot even at very low volumes.

And as a bonus - if that kind of cash is not the major issue and you really suspect the IR's - keep the Axe and combine it with the tube power and iso cab setup to be super covered with all the recording options you can imagine

 

[yek]

the AXE FX II has something to it that makes it very hard to place in a mix.
adding some room does help but it automatically clouds up everything.

I do not agree at all.
Nor do Metallica and other pro acts using FAS gear. ;-)
I have no problem cutting through the mix.

BTW, look up the Kemper forum. You'll find posts there from Kemper owners complaining that they do not cut through the mix.

It's a mix of Fletcher Munson + digital representation of close-mic'd sounds, fighting for space in the sonic spectrum.
With that knowledge its easy to deal with.

 

[Soultrash]

The digital world is different - we can all claim that this or that amp is captured to perfection but at the end of the day the tone is being created in very different way and probably has different characteristics. If you can't make peace with the Axe, and it sounds like you have made lots of effort, I really wouldn't look at just a different digital solution.

Did you ever consider a tube amp through an isolation cabinet? I've heard fantastic recordings from iso cabs and this way you can keep the signal analog all the way to your interface. Mind you that Randall iso's on the market only dampen some 29db and you are better off building one yourself to make it box-in-a-box.

If noise is still an issue you can combine it with an amp with Vario load like the Bugera Trirec. It adjusts steplessly from 100 down to 1 watts to allow getting to that break-up sweet spot even at very low volumes.

And as a bonus - if that kind of cash is not the major issue and you really suspect the IR's - keep the Axe and combine it with the tube power and iso cab setup to be super covered with all the recording options you can imagine

yeah i've spent quite some time with the AXE both the Standard and the II.
It's always been a rolercoaster, just when i start to like a tone i dialed in i hate it the next day and just as
throw everything away and dial in something new it feels like the first day i got the AXE, it feels awesome!

I've been thinking to the real amp route and i've checked out pretty much any isolation cab on the market but i did not like the
sound. The only one that sounds promising is the "grossmann SG-BOX"

I might try a lunchbox and 2x12 combo first and see how it works in my apartment!

I do not agree at all.
Nor do Metallica and other pro acts using FAS gear. ;-)
I have no problem cutting through the mix.

BTW, look up the Kemper forum. You'll find posts there from Kemper owners complaining that they do not cut through the mix.

It's a mix of Fletcher Munson + digital representation of close-mic'd sounds, fighting for space in the sonic spectrum.
With that knowledge its easy to deal with.

Not sure but i do not thing that Metallica is using the AXE for recording exclusively, as i saif i am pretty OK with my jaming tones,
but when it comes to recording it does not work. It's not necesarrily the AXE it could be my guitar also, god some pickups in there
i do not really like so maybe stitching will bring back sunshine again.

Though in general there is something wrong with the AXE sounds i am recently getting, i don't think that my unit is faulty
but it's funny, with every new FW i thing it sounds worse while everybody else thinks that it sounds better.

 

[Winther]

Just be careful making too many decisions based on a lunchbox - while some will sound fine in a video it's just not as full in reality as more intricate monsters.

Regarding the iso cabs remember that you only need a single speaker - meaning you can afford to replace the stock unit with a Mesa UK spec, original greenback or any other flavor you prefer.

 

[Winther]

.... oh, and thanks for the hint on the SG box! Some nice ideas in the design although a box-in-a-box will always reduce the noise significantly better. The quick change and absorber are brilliant though

 

[Jason Scott]

the hi gain metal tones i've heard from the KEMPER so far are really spot on, they are present but not fizzy, strong in the bottom end but not boomy and most important the mids are clear. with the AXE FX it's the exact opposite.

Whatever differences there may be, I attribute them in large part to the Kemper's cabs rather than its amp profiling. If you take IR's out of the equation and compare amps alone, I think the Axe has higher quality amp modeling overall. At least that's my impression at this point.

is there anything you could share?

All of the IR's I've captured from the KPA come from commercial profiles, so I'm a bit uneasy about openly distributing them.

the KEMPER capturing technique seems quite a different approach when i think of that sweeping UFO like kemper test tones

While I find many cab profiles do sound excellent, the amp profiling, however, leaves something to be desired in some cases. Overall, it's pretty darn accurate, but it ranges from 'super close' to 'yes, I can hear a difference'.

 

[Jason Scott]

the AXE FX II has something to it that makes it very hard to place in a mix.
adding some room does help but it automatically clouds up everything.

Crank up the Supply Sag a bit. I usually boost it to approx. 4.30 or thereabouts. There's something to it that rounds off the top end a bit. It might be doing other stuff, but that's what I hear anyway. That should get you closer.

 

[Soultrash]

@Winther
yeah, changing the speakers in the Grossman box is really intriguing, the only downside is,
it does sound way better than any other iso box but it is also not a quiet thing, the difference between
the box being open and closed is actually not that big, if i can jsuge correctly from the samples.
it's almost on a lever where you could use a normal 2x12 cab instead.

@Jason Scott
I also think that the AXE is more accurate on the AMP/FX side but KEMPER seems to get the CAB spot on
from what i can judge so far.

Supply Sag it's basically the only setting i am using inevitably, it surely helps
to turn it up!


@jaycroft97
if you ever read this, hit me up and i'll get you a few beer, i really didn't mean to
hijack your thread so immensely but as often with me, things got a bit out of control

 

[Jason Scott]

Supply Sag it's basically the only setting i am using inevitably, it surely helps to turn it up!

I also tend to lower the pick attack a bit.

 

[Winther]

Well, what I mean is; rather than juat having a closed box with some insulation inside, the cabinet AND mic-room should be in a cabinet separated from the outer box. If it is connected only by soft insulation materials and the outer box is completely closed, only THEN will you make a dramatic reduction in noise simply because the sound doesn't travel through the insulation from the inner resonator to the outer. If you have enough space you could also put the SG box inside another closed box - with no hard contact.

I am telling you also because I have the same problem and I am definitely going to do this myself

 

[benvigil]

I'll say it again... when you're ONLY talking about the tone it produces, the Kemper's one flaw is that the distortion character is very much "baked in", no matter what you profile. And that "baked in" tone is a driven Marshall EL84-ish tone. You can change everything about the amp drive and gain and attack and response and tone and feel... but you can't change the character. Now that said, that character works fantastically in spades for 95% of amps, from a vintage Marshall, to a Plexi, to a Freidman (almost), to a Cameron, etc.. I actually find the Kemper easier to dial in these types of amps and I think the Kemper sounds better than my AX8 in all honesty. But it's better in a Ferrari vs Lamborghini kind of way.

BUUUUUUUT, I've never heard an accurate Boogie Mark IIC+ out of the Kemper. Then you add in the FAS effects ecosystem + editor, and the AxeFX and AX8 are a better choice for me.

 

[Deadpan]

I'll say it again... when you're ONLY talking about the tone it produces, the Kemper's one flaw is that the distortion character is very much "baked in", no matter what you profile. And that "baked in" tone is a driven Marshall EL84-ish tone. You can change everything about the amp drive and gain and attack and response and tone and feel... but you can't change the character. Now that said, that character works fantastically in spades for 95% of amps, from a vintage Marshall, to a Plexi, to a Freidman (almost), to a Cameron, etc.. I actually find the Kemper easier to dial in these types of amps and I think the Kemper sounds better than my AX8 in all honesty. But it's better in a Ferrari vs Lamborghini kind of way.

BUUUUUUUT, I've never heard an accurate Boogie Mark IIC+ out of the Kemper. Then you add in the FAS effects ecosystem + editor, and the AxeFX and AX8 are a better choice for me.

Completely disagree with this! Haha, How can a clip of an actual recorded amp sound identical to a clip of the profile if the distortion was not them same. Please rethink this.

 

[Jason Scott]

I'll say it again... when you're ONLY talking about the tone it produces, the Kemper's one flaw is that the distortion character is very much "baked in", no matter what you profile. And that "baked in" tone is a driven Marshall EL84-ish tone. You can change everything about the amp drive and gain and attack and response and tone and feel... but you can't change the character. Now that said, that character works fantastically in spades for 95% of amps, from a vintage Marshall, to a Plexi, to a Freidman (almost), to a Cameron, etc.. I actually find the Kemper easier to dial in these types of amps and I think the Kemper sounds better than my AX8 in all honesty. But it's better in a Ferrari vs Lamborghini kind of way.

BUUUUUUUT, I've never heard an accurate Boogie Mark IIC+ out of the Kemper. Then you add in the FAS effects ecosystem + editor, and the AxeFX and AX8 are a better choice for me.

In my opinion, the Kemper may be easier to dial in due to the cabs rather than the amp. Use the same cabs with the Axe and you'll likely find you can dial it in just as easily and it'll sound every bit as good or better.

 

[nicolasrivera]

@Soultrash, if you are having a hard time getting the axe fx to cut thru a mix, its not the unit man, its you.

 

[Soultrash]

I also tend to lower the pick attack a bit.

must check this out, ususally i am trying to leave most extra parameters untouched!

In general i think there's way too much to fiddle around which is confusing.
The AXE is supposed to MIMIC real amps and according to Cliff it does that extremely accurately,
so why all the extra parameters then?

I mean real amps can sound insanely good without any of this
so it should be possible with the AXE too, but it doesn't look like that at all.

Well, what I mean is; rather than juat having a closed box with some insulation inside, the cabinet AND mic-room should be in a cabinet separated from the outer box. If it is connected only by soft insulation materials and the outer box is completely closed, only THEN will you make a dramatic reduction in noise simply because the sound doesn't travel through the insulation from the inner resonator to the outer. If you have enough space you could also put the SG box inside another closed box - with no hard contact.

I am telling you also because I have the same problem and I am definitely going to do this myself

sounds insteresting i've also seen people building booths for guitar cabinets but due to the dimensions it sounded very bad in my opinion,
very strange resonances.

@Soultrash, if you are having a hard time getting the axe fx to cut thru a mix, its not the unit man, its you.

Maybe, maybe not.
As i've entioned before the AXE has something to it that does simply not fit my taste and this comes up extremely
as son as i add an IR.

Example, i iam using a very simple AMP+CAB setup.
Sometimes i prefer to add the AMP only first and dial in the basics,
gain, low end,treble etc. Having the AMP without the cab sounds bad of course but there is something to it,
it sounds very detailed, defined, the response is different, in general it sounds alive.

Then as soons as i throw on the CAB everything gets lost, the tone gets extremely flat und lifeless, it also
gets pushed to the background.

Well i understand that the solo AMP block sounds more present due to the amund of high end but it's not just a
matter of frequency, everything that sounded great before doesn't sound any good as soon as an IR is added.

 

[Jason Scott]

must check this out, ususally i am trying to leave most extra parameters untouched!

In general i think there's way too much to fiddle around which is confusing. The AXE is supposed to MIMIC real amps and according to Cliff it does that extremely accurately, so why all the extra parameters then?

I mean real amps can sound insanely good without any of this so it should be possible with the AXE too, but it doesn't look like that at all.

The only advanced amp parameters I generally tweak are Supply Sag and Pick Attack, and I picked those specifically because they tend to round off and smooth opening notes, which is an attribute I've noticed with Kemper profiles.

 

[Winther]

sounds insteresting i've also seen people building booths for guitar cabinets but due to the dimensions it sounded very bad in my opinion,
very strange resonances.

Well, a couple things to note. If you just put a cabinet inside a box you don't get the double isolation of the recording chamber. In the solution I talk about you put the entire iso cab inside another isolated box. If you want to record real speakers at decent volume in an apartment building at night that might the only solution.

It's interesting to note though, that Malcolm Young used to capture his in-your-face rhythm tones at very low volume and the mic almost touching the membrane, in order to get the finest details of pick attack and string physics.

In regards to the strange resonances I think most of the iso manufacturers make an obvious mistake in not angling the speaker surface slightly off from the back and front walls it is facing.