Recreating the amp experience

James Freeman

James Freeman

Inspired
I want to have some knobs to twist so it feels like I'm adjusting a guitar amp, is there a 1U midi controller with a row of CC knobs and some switches to recreate the tactile experience?
*To be installed in a rack with the AxeFx + PowerAmp.
 
Hey Jimbob!

The Axe3 has performance pages where you can do this. It depends how many controls you're looking for, but you get two rows of 5 controls, which can be buttons or knobs, depending what you put on the page. They all get mapped to the 5 knobs below the screen. You can make these globally or per-preset.

I'm not aware of any commercial 1U rack midi controllers, and the problem you have there is lack of bi-communication. If you had a button on there that lit up for example, it wouldn't change its state from preset to preset. Which can be pretty confusing I guess. You also end up in situations where you have to press the damn things multiple times in order to 'pick up' the Axe's current state and sync the controls. IE:

  • Axe preset has bright switch engaged already
  • Controller is unlit because of previous presets state
  • You press the button, the controller lights up and sends the Axe a 127 message for the switch
  • Switch remains in its engaged state

Another thing to consider is, a lot of midi controllers don't provide endless rotary encoders, and considering the above lack of bi-directional communication, I always find myself ramping a control up to 127 and then back to where I wanted it to make sure I've definitely got the right value in place.

All in all... I don't really think it is going to offer good workflow. The performance pages are much better; although granted you have to remember to switch to that tab before starting your show.
 
Performance pages are the only option here. I usually set the top row to gain, B/M/T, and master.

There used to be a rack-mount knob twister for AFX II, sold here on the forum. That's because the II had a more extensive MIDI library that let you control effect parameters, which is not available on the III. So unfortunately you can't make one.
 
James Freeman said:
I want to have some knobs to twist so it feels like I'm adjusting a guitar amp, is there a 1U midi controller with a row of CC knobs and some switches to recreate the tactile experience?
*To be installed in a rack with the AxeFx + PowerAmp.
Click to expand...
Let me squash your dreams.

You can map 16 external controllers to almost any parameter on Fractal. However...
  • You can no longer adjust the mapped parameters using the front panel or Axe-Edit. There is no sensible reason why it has to be this way - "last value in from any source determines current value" works just fine. I think the modifier system is originally built around LFOs and such and never overhauled to support external controllers properly.
  • Turning mapped modifier parameters on/off is not quick. You need to remove them one by one.
  • When you change presets, your MIDI controller is still the source of truth so if you tweak something it will jump to wherever that knob was pointing rather than starting from the preset value because Fractal does not support relative MIDI CC values.
    • Relative CC values mean value <64 = value down, >64 = value up, then Fractal would calculate what that means for the parameter value based on how often it receives that change.
    • Another alternative is absolute values with "catch up" feature where you need to turn the knob past the preset's value before it does anything.
    • Best option would be if the Fractal was able to communicate the MIDI value equivalent back to the MIDI controller, but not all MIDI controllers support MIDI input in this manner.
What you describe is possible via MIDI -> Fractal Sysex translation, but this has the following caveats:
  • You need to be able to run a middleman app to do this translation since Fractal does not support this beyond those 16 external controllers and their limitations. A middleman app like that is not available atm.
  • Fractal does not offer any MIDI Sysex specs for doing this so reverse engineering is required. Axe-Fx Wiki has ones for the Axe-Fx 2 but those do not work on the current gen.
Unfortunately external knob control is not doable in any sensible, user friendly way. Your best bet is to either:
  1. Rely on the "double click A to edit Amp block" shortcut and use the onboard knobs.
  2. Map your controls to the Global Performance page. They are very limited in the number of parameters and mainly work for "I need to tweak a couple of things in a live situation" usecases rather than "quickly edit my most important blocks" in home/studio setups.
  3. Just use Axe-Edit like most of us.
There's an absolutely huge potential for improvement here that I wish Fractal would investigate. Axe-Edit + MIDI knob controller could be a super user friendly way to work with the gear. There could be a number of ways to go:
  • Context-based editing. MIDI CCs are mapped to whatever block's params is currently on screen in Axe-Edit or onboard UI.
  • Specific block param mapping. If you turn a knob mapped to X block Y param, onboard UI and/or Axe-Edit shows that block on screen to show the current parameter change so you always have a visual. This is similar to what e.g the Omnisphere plugin can do with custom controls.
But unfortunately it's in Fractal's court whether they want to do anything like this. Just improving the modifier system so it can be easily turned on/off and being able to determine "allow any source (Axe-Edit/onboard UI/MIDI CC) to alter this modifier param" would go a long way as a start.
 
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1. Get a Tablet and @AlGrenadine 's Frac-Pad
1698397760454.png
2 - Get some Tuna Knobs rotary controllers and place them over the Frac-Pad knobs. They work over any touch-screen
Voila!!

1698397839493.png
1698398004442.jpeg
1698398043268.png
1698398115883.png


The knob cursor will not be updated with the current knob position when loading a preset, though. So this sucks as much as its suction cup. It would be perfect if these knobs did not have a cursor, and they just displaced the existing position of the control when you rotate them.
So far, nothing like the Axe-FX III Performance Pages
 
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I was waiting for you to comment @laxu , I know you’ve covered this ground before.

I reckon the only hope is a hardware thing that sends data to FracPad via BT, and @AlGrenadine makes magic for all of our dreams 🤩
 
The only way a 3rd party solution would be better than the performance pages in my opinion is if the knobs were much better and wider spaced apart, and if you didn't have to deal with switching between row A and B. But I gotta say ... the performance pages are pretty damn killer. I'd never really messed with them all that much before.

Fractal really thought of almost everything with this device!
 
Orvillain said:
The only way a 3rd party solution would be better than the performance pages in my opinion is if the knobs were much better and wider spaced apart, and if you didn't have to deal with switching between row A and B. But I gotta say ... the performance pages are pretty damn killer. I'd never really messed with them all that much before.

Fractal really thought of almost everything with this device!
Click to expand...
To me the performance pages are way too limited and like you said, the controls under the display are pretty cramped. You have a lot of the same problems as when operating the rest of the onboard UI - lots of changing between rows and so on that even a cheap MIDI controller with enough knobs doesn't have.

Ideally I'd like to put a MIDI controller I like on my desk and use Axe-Edit together with it. The idea is similar to operating a DAW with physical faders for example.
 
Oh My God Omg GIF by The Office
 
laxu said:
To me the performance pages are way too limited and like you said, the controls under the display are pretty cramped. You have a lot of the same problems as when operating the rest of the onboard UI - lots of changing between rows and so on that even a cheap MIDI controller with enough knobs doesn't have.

Ideally I'd like to put a MIDI controller I like on my desk and use Axe-Edit together with it. The idea is similar to operating a DAW with physical faders for example.
Click to expand...
Personally I've had it with midi controllers. Spent so much money on them since I was 15 or so, and always been disappointed. The chief issue is that the controller can always get into a situation where it doesn't truly reflect the reality of the parameters on whatever you're controlling. There's a ton of detail to that statement, but in essence that is the issue.

Some software and hardware deals with it by implementing a 'pickup' method, where the destination control doesn't move until your hardware CC hits the current value. But then you just end up sat there turning every single parameter to where it needs to be every time you switch a preset. It is really annoying.

There are some controllers that have solved this by making their knobs endless rotaries, and having additional middle-man software to deal with the mappings; stuff like Novation Automap. But it really sucks to setup.

These days I'd really rather just have a physical control on the thing generating the noise, because then at least I know when I look at a knob or a parameter value on screen, they are more or less going to match up 1:1.
 
Piing said:
1. Get a Tablet and @AlGrenadine 's Frac-Pad
View attachment 128668
2 - Get some Tuna Knobs rotary controllers and place them over the Frac-Pad knobs. They work over any touch-screen
Voila!!

View attachment 128669
View attachment 128671
View attachment 128672
View attachment 128673


The knob cursor will not be updated with the current knob position when loading a preset, though. So this sucks as much as its suction cup. It would be perfect if these knobs did not have a cursor, and they just displaced the existing position of the control when you rotate them.
So far, nothing like the Axe-FX III Performance Pages
Click to expand...
I haven’t used the amp in a long time but did he update it now to use graphics for the amp heads?
 
Orvillain said:
Personally I've had it with midi controllers. Spent so much money on them since I was 15 or so, and always been disappointed. The chief issue is that the controller can always get into a situation where it doesn't truly reflect the reality of the parameters on whatever you're controlling. There's a ton of detail to that statement, but in essence that is the issue.
Click to expand...
Understandable, MIDI controllers vary wildly in their capabilities, and devices in what they support and how they work. I feel like guitar gear is very far behind synths etc in how well MIDI control works. On modelers MIDI feels like an afterthought meant only for footswitch type control.

Orvillain said:
Some software and hardware deals with it by implementing a 'pickup' method, where the destination control doesn't move until your hardware CC hits the current value. But then you just end up sat there turning every single parameter to where it needs to be every time you switch a preset. It is really annoying.
Click to expand...
Relative values are another way to solve the problem because then the controller doesn't have a value in itself, just sends up/down commands and the source of truth is the device being controlled. But this is not supported by many devices.

I like how Strymon does it where if you turn a knob on a pedal, it can be set to send the equivalent MIDI CC and value. This way if your MIDI controller can track these, it will stay in sync. The only problem is that Strymon does not seem to send all values on preset changes or when the pedal is started. But it's good enough since there's dedicated knobs for most things and only secondary params can be operated via MIDI.

Orvillain said:
These days I'd really rather just have a physical control on the thing generating the noise, because then at least I know when I look at a knob or a parameter value on screen, they are more or less going to match up 1:1.
Click to expand...
I'd like this too, but we all know that current gen Fractal is not that great in this department due to limitations of physical control arrangement, performance pages, modifier system, MIDI capabilities and more.

Apart from a more user-friendly next gen product, the best option would be to augment the current gen capabilities via MIDI control since you can pick the physical device that works best for you.
 
laxu said:
To me the performance pages are way too limited and like you said, the controls under the display are pretty cramped. You have a lot of the same problems as when operating the rest of the onboard UI - lots of changing between rows and so on that even a cheap MIDI controller with enough knobs doesn't have.

Ideally I'd like to put a MIDI controller I like on my desk and use Axe-Edit together with it. The idea is similar to operating a DAW with physical faders for example.
Click to expand...
This is exactly my dream. A physical board laid out like a mixer where I can just reach out and touch somebody... er, change any setting instantly. It's so close... could happen over MIDI with the right software on our beloved platform. I know Cliff's time is probably better spent on making the actual thing sound even better, but the ability to control effects like this would be a huge improvement for me.
 
Piing said:
1. Get a Tablet and @AlGrenadine 's Frac-Pad
View attachment 128668
2 - Get some Tuna Knobs rotary controllers and place them over the Frac-Pad knobs. They work over any touch-screen
Voila!!

View attachment 128669
View attachment 128671
View attachment 128672
View attachment 128673


The knob cursor will not be updated with the current knob position when loading a preset, though. So this sucks as much as its suction cup. It would be perfect if these knobs did not have a cursor, and they just displaced the existing position of the control when you rotate them.
So far, nothing like the Axe-FX III Performance Pages
Click to expand...
Oh these look super cool!
 
James Freeman said:
I want to have some knobs to twist so it feels like I'm adjusting a guitar amp, is there a 1U midi controller with a row of CC knobs and some switches to recreate the tactile experience?
*To be installed in a rack with the AxeFx + PowerAmp.
Click to expand...
Not that I have found, though I started building one multiple times for the same reason you're asking about it... It is a missing piece of the experience
 
You guys have described the value of a good solution really well, and the obstacles to achieving it. Bummer, but true I'm afraid.

The only real solution is a Fractal "amp head" (not including the actual amp of course). Roughly the size of an actual 100 Watt head, there'd be room for lots of controls, all endless rotation with virtual light-up pointers for current position.

I'm in.

Except it'd cost double the Axe III, so maybe not, practically speaking.
 
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