Reamping slightly out of sync

[mr_fender]

Yeah with outboard gear, there's always a little variation unless it is locked to a sample clock like SPDIF or AES. I think its part of the whole synchronous vs asynchronous transfer thing.

 

[steadystate]

FYI I have tested this issue EXTENSIVELY in Reaper and want to post this so that people don't go crazy troubleshooting.

The "setting it once and you're good" does not work 100% of the time for me. Even after setting the delay offset so that the reamp is perfect, it does not work across projects. In other words, this value can and does change.

I have suspicions that plugins with delay compensation (Reaper calls this PDC) may be causing the value to shift. As of right now the only work around I can think of is adding a "transient" to every track that after the Reamp process you line up to.

I use Reaper, and this is my experience as well.

 

[BrandonDT]

When I reamp I create a click track and send that through the chain for reamping so you're spot on the beat. And then manually measure the amount to compensate for. I just offset the reamped tracks by that amount going forward.

 

[Rekster]

There was another post by @strabes talking about using a separate interface to circumvent the latency issue that seems to have disappeared? What happened to this post?

 

[GlennO]

There was another post by @strabes talking about using a separate interface to circumvent the latency issue that seems to have disappeared? What happened to this post?

Because this alignment problem doesn't occur with most other audio interfaces, yes, it's been long known that if you run spdif to an audio interface, then usb from the audio interface to your computer, you can avoid this problem. But, the better solution is usually to just set the compensation preference in your DAW. There are reasons you might want to use spdif, but this probably isn't one of them.

 

[Rekster]

Because this alignment problem doesn't occur with most other audio interfaces, yes, it's been long known that if you run spdif to an audio interface, then usb from the audio interface to your computer, you can avoid this problem. But, the better solution is usually to just set the compensation preference in your DAW. There are reasons you might want to use spdif, but this probably isn't one of them.

I have a feeling this is why I'm only running into this problem now. I used to use a Focusrite Clarett 8Pre as my primary audio interface with SPDIF to my AF3) and don't recall having any issues. I just figured if I'm only recording guitars now then I could use the AF3 as my interface instead and downsize my gear.

@FractalAudio I'm just curious.. Is there any chance of improving on latency reporting to DAWs in a future update, or is this not a possibility (due to limitations that are above my head)?

 

[GlennO]

I have a feeling this is why I'm only running into this problem now. I used to use a Focusrite Clarett 8Pre as my primary audio interface with SPDIF to my AF3) and don't recall having any issues. I just figured if I'm only recording guitars now then I could use the AF3 as my interface instead and downsize my gear.

And the answer is "yes", you can simplify and downsize your rig. Like everybody else who records with Fractal gear, you just needed to adjust your DAW preference to make it work. In your particular case, before you adjusted it, your misalignment was on the order of milliseconds, which will be noticeable under some circumstances. After making the adjustment, you're now down to a much smaller misalignment, on the order of microseconds, which is probably not noticeable and is pretty darn good for outboard gear.

That said, if Fractal Audio could fix this problem, it would save everybody from the headache of discovering the need for this workaround.

 

[aziz]

I had a problem where the reamped track would start OK but then drift out of sync with the original. I don't even begin to comprehend how that was possible. Luckily, it disappeared after a reboot.

 

[sixtystring]

It would be incredibly helpful if everyone who has has success with the "set the offset" fix also mention the DAW they use. Since I have personally spent hours troubleshooting this in Reaper, I know it does not work across the board. This will help prevent confusion when people inevitably search for this issue.

Just to clarify, setting the offset does not work work across projects for Reaper:



After additional testing beyond the vid I posted, I suspect that plugins that have "PDC" or "plugin delay compensation" may have something to do with the "unstable" behavior, but I am not 100% sure.

I also believe there are similar reports of the same problem with Logic as well.

 

[GlennO]

I've had the same success you saw in your first test, using ProTools, Cubase, Studio One, Reaper, and Logic Pro. Sorry, I haven't seen the problem you had in your second test so I don't have an explanation for that. You can remove latent plugins and turn off PDC if you suspect that is causing trouble. If that's the case, it's going to cause problems no matter what you're using for your audio interface.

 

[Rekster]

And the answer is "yes", you can simplify and downsize your rig. Like everybody else who records with Fractal gear, you just needed to adjust your DAW preference to make it work. In your particular case, before you adjusted it, your misalignment was on the order of milliseconds, which will be noticeable under some circumstances. After making the adjustment, you're now down to a much smaller misalignment, on the order of microseconds, which is probably not noticeable and is pretty darn good for outboard gear.

That said, if Fractal Audio could fix this problem, it would save everybody from the headache of discovering the need for this workaround.

I’m considering putting another audio interface back in the mix just to circumvent this issue. Yes there’s workarounds but it will eliminate the aggravation for me. Before I go down that road can you clarify something for me? Can I still record dry and reamp if I’m not using the af3 as the audio interface?

 

[GlennO]

I’m considering putting another audio interface back in the mix just to circumvent this issue. Yes there’s workarounds but it will eliminate the aggravation for me. Before I go down that road can you clarify something for me? Can I still record dry and reamp if I’m not using the af3 as the audio interface?

Assuming your audio interface has sufficient I/O, yes. I would recommend using one that has spdif in and out.

 

[sixtystring]

I've had the same success you saw in your first test, using ProTools, Cubase, Studio One, Reaper, and Logic Pro. Sorry, I haven't seen the problem you had in your second test so I don't have an explanation for that. You can remove latent plugins and turn off PDC if you suspect that is causing trouble. If that's the case, it's going to cause problems no matter what you're using for your audio interface.

Yeah, I've tried clearing REAPER.INI file, fresh install of reaper, using different Reaper versions, and a different computer and the same problem persists across all.

Unforunately removing the plugins doesn't fix the issue either. In my vid, I remove all the plugins from the existing project and its still ends up being "off". After that, when I go back to the original project where it was "on", that value is now "off" despite nothing changing.

I want to clarify as well, that I've sent in a lot of additional info to Fractal Support and have worked with them quite a bit to try and isolate the problem. They have been beyond great and awesome to work with. I'm hopeful that the engineers figure something out.

 

[GlennO]

Right, but I believe you left PDC turned on. Another factor here may be Mac vs. Windows. They are significantly different, most notably because there is a FAS driver for Windows, but not on the Mac.

I just tried a test where I opened a complex Cubase project with many latent plugins and PDC turned on and I did a loopback record test. It worked fine.

P.S. Somebody (I think Mr. Fender) discovered a bug recently where the AxeFX usb buffer size change doesn't stick after a reboot. So if you are doing anything with that buffer size setting, that could explain your discrepancy.

 

[sixtystring]

Right, but I believe you left PDC turned on. Another factor here may be Mac vs. Windows. They are significantly different, most notably because there is a FAS driver for Windows, but not on the Mac.

I just tried a test where I opened a complex Cubase project with many latent plugins and PDC turned on and I did a loopback record test. It worked fine.

P.S. Somebody (I think Mr. Fender) discovered a bug recently where the AxeFX usb buffer size change doesn't stick after a reboot. So if you are doing anything with that buffer size setting, that could explain your discrepancy.

I did read about the Axe-FX buffer size not sticking after reboot. I don't think it's that as I'm not adjusting any of the USB settings and the issue happens without rebooting my machine or Axe-FX.

That being said, I'm interested to know if you have enabled or disabled "use audio driver reported latency" in conjunction with the offset? I'm trying to find a global "disable PDC" in Reaper, but so far I've only found reference to it when right-clicking a Channel's record button. There is an option there labeled "Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items". Mine is unchecked, what are yours set to?

 

[GlennO]

In the test I just did with cubase, I had Constrain Delay Compensation, which is analogous to Reaper's Preserve PDC, turned off. In a previous thread where this was discussed, I posted Reaper results and I'm sure I would have had "use audio driver reported latency" turned off for that.

 

[sixtystring]

Need to do more research, but it seems like Reaper lacks a global way to turn off delay compensated plugins (ala "Constrain Delay Compensation" from Cubase.)

It is still strange that even after clearing all the plugins out of the project, the offset is still not syncing as expected.

I've had "use audio driver reported latency" turned on, so I'll try to do some tests tonight with it disabled.

 

[Rekster]

I’m considering putting another audio interface back in the mix just to circumvent this issue. Yes there’s workarounds but it will eliminate the aggravation for me. Before I go down that road can you clarify something for me? Can I still record dry and reamp if I’m not using the af3 as the audio interface?

Assuming your audio interface has sufficient I/O, yes. I would recommend using one that has spdif in and out.

I ended up reconnecting a Focusrite Clarett 8Pre, it has SPDIF in and out. But SPDIF only carries 2 channels so I can't see how I can pass through both wet and dry signals from the AF3?

But the wet is recording perfectly in sync now, so it's definitely the AF3 that isn't reporting latency correctly to the DAW. I just can't reamp now.

So are my only options to record perfectly in sync to use my Clarett but by doing so I can only record wet? And if I want to record both wet/dry for reamping I'm at the mercy of the latency issue from the AF3?

This is so frustrating.

 

[MackieFX]

Should I be doing this when using the axe to record my normal guitar parts?

 

[strabes]

So are my only options to record perfectly in sync to use my Clarett but by doing so I can only record wet? And if I want to record both wet/dry for reamping I'm at the mercy of the latency issue from the AF3?

This is so frustrating.

Correct. You can record the dry, comp it so your take is perfect, then reamp the comped dry take, all via SPDIF. I find this easier than tracking wet+dry at the same time and comping both. It's also much easier to quantize dry guitar since there's no delay and reverb.

Another option is to use SPDIF to record the wet and an analog output to record the dry into a separate input on your interface.

Should I be doing this when using the axe to record my normal guitar parts?

If you notice that your parts are out of sync with the click when recording via USB, yes.