RCF NX12-SMA

[Scott Peterson]

I don't know why people are not going for the 15s. A 15 pushes more air, and will get you closer to the thump of a 4x12. The trade off is a recessed midrange, and a bigger footprint, but I think its worth it. I personally own some 12 coax wedges however I can not stop thinking about how amazing the 15s I tried were.

For me, the magic is in the mids. I've never been able to say I was happy with guitar tones out of 15" based PA mains.... I prefer 12" with subs for mids (guitars/keys/vocals) that work for me. IMHO, no different with monitor wedges.

 

[ngstime]

Scott,

Is the honeymoon still going?

 

[three]

Mainly the weight 65 lbs vs 36. I can't carry that around very easily...

Hmmmm. I don't know where your getting your figures from. From what I see its 43 pounds for the 15 inch version, and 36 pounds for the 12s. Not that big of a weight difference. But quite noticeable in the sound that projects from the boxes.

 

[three]

For me, the magic is in the mids. I've never been able to say I was happy with guitar tones out of 15" based PA mains.... I prefer 12" with subs for mids (guitars/keys/vocals) that work for me. IMHO, no different with monitor wedges.

If we were talking front of house, I would agree that 12s with subs would be a more ideal situation than 15s with subs or 15s on their own. However with personal stage monitoring a sub would probably make the sound way too messy. And while the 12s from RCF or B&C are amazing drivers, the 15s seem push the air and supply low end that the 12s are not quite capable of. The result IMHO sounds much bigger. The trade off is a slightly recessed midrange, but I think the "bigness" of the sound is worth it personally. I am only speaking from my personal experience. I bought some 12s after trying 15s, and I thought they would most certainly do the job. But they just don't seem to have the grunt that the 15s have. If I were to do it all over again, I would get 15s. I think its important to try both before you buy.

 

[Scott Peterson]

If we were talking front of house, I would agree that 12s with subs would be a more ideal situation than 15s with subs or 15s on their own. However with personal stage monitoring a sub would probably make the sound way too messy. And while the 12s from RCF or B&C are amazing drivers, the 15s seem push the air and supply low end that the 12s are not quite capable of. The result IMHO sounds much bigger. The trade off is a slightly recessed midrange, but I think the "bigness" of the sound is worth it personally. I am only speaking from my personal experience. I bought some 12s after trying 15s, and I thought they would most certainly do the job. But they just don't seem to have the grunt that the 15s have. If I were to do it all over again, I would get 15s. I think its important to try both before you buy.

Certainly personal preference; on this opinion you and I will have to disagree. I speak from personal experience with FOH and on stage monitoring for over 4 years of direct to FOH experience.

Note I am not a bootlz player.

 

[three]

Certainly personal preference; on this opinion you and I will have to disagree. I speak from personal experience with FOH and on stage monitoring for over 4 years of direct to FOH experience.

Note I am not a bootlz player.

I agree. It is definitely personal preference. That is why I stressed it is important to try both before you buy. If you tried both models of the RCFs before you bought them and the 12s were better for you than that is great. I have no doubt the RCF 12s are stunning. I just think 15 wedges give a fuller sound at low to mid range volume. I am not sure what a bootiz player is, but I don't think I am one either.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Scott,

Is the honeymoon still going?

Yes; it's doing the job for me and zero issues at all.

I did get the 25' Siamese powercon/XLR cable mentioned a few pages back; very nice setup. Totally professional looking and serious cable... quality stuff.

Happy guy here.

 

[Rocket Brother]

For me, the magic is in the mids. I've never been able to say I was happy with guitar tones out of 15" based PA mains.... I prefer 12" with subs for mids (guitars/keys/vocals) that work for me. IMHO, no different with monitor wedges.

This !
The magic of a guitar is all in the mids, thats where all the nuances live, and IMHO and experience 12" FRFR speakers does mids better than their 15" counterparts.
I frequently see players (often those with little live playing experience and those running their own sound) dial their rigs to be way to bass heavy in search of a "full" sound, and thus ending up sounding very muddy and bland in the total mix as they are effectively batteling (and losing) with the bass player for the top of low frequencies. All this IMHO....

 

[knoll]

I don't know why people are not going for the 15s. A 15 pushes more air, and will get you closer to the thump of a 4x12.

I'm not sure one can say a 15" pushes more air than 12". It's not just about the area. I miss Jay.

 

[three]

I'm not sure one can say a 15" pushes more air than 12". It's not just about the area. I miss Jay.

Maybe I can put it another way. I feel that duel concentric 15s react to small wedge boxes better than 12s. In an ideal world I would pick 12s in a box big enough to let them do what they do best. However in small boxes I find 15s sound more "full range" and 12s sound more "mid range". And in my experience it shows in many things like clean patches... For me the 15s allow immersion in the sound at lower volumes. As I said I own 12s and I am not unhappy. But if I had the chance to do it again, I would get 15s. That is why it is important to try first. Unfortunately its not so easy to find somewhere that would demo both of the RCF models... But it might be worth finding a local rental company that carries high end wedges and renting some for the day to compare and make an informed decision. The high end rental companies I know don't even have 12s in their rental stock.

 

[theblogjammers]

Hmmmm. I don't know where your getting your figures from. From what I see its 43 pounds for the 15 inch version, and 36 pounds for the 12s. Not that big of a weight difference. But quite noticeable in the sound that projects from the boxes.

Ooops! Sorry. You are right. I misread the weight spec. Maybe 43 lbs isn't too bad. I guess I also have thought the 12" were better for guitar midrange...

 

[Stringtheorist]

Well, I just dug out my NX12 to try out again after playing exclusively with my Atomic and cab setup for a few weeks, and I'm shocked at how much detail I've been missing from my tone using this setup. If only I could get the RCF to behave like a guitar cab I would be far happier using it for backline instead. Trouble is, I just don't feel it moving enough air to fill the stage, and I can't get it to feed back naturally at a sensible volume. I've had it on the floor and on a pole but the result is the same... Would really like to know other users' take on this.

 

[simeon]

interesting post. i'm currently using two atomic wedges and thinking about switching to something smaller. these rcf's seem like a really good alternative. i'd like to hear more about the comparison between the two.
i'm not that bothered about crushing volume or having a massive sound - my primary concern is that they sound natural, without any big peaks or dips in the eq and a pleasing top end.
btw - controlled feedback may just be an eq issue.
sim

 

[Scott Peterson]

Well, I just dug out my NX12 to try out again after playing exclusively with my Atomic and cab setup for a few weeks, and I'm shocked at how much detail I've been missing from my tone using this setup. If only I could get the RCF to behave like a guitar cab I would be far happier using it for backline instead. Trouble is, I just don't feel it moving enough air to fill the stage, and I can't get it to feed back naturally at a sensible volume. I've had it on the floor and on a pole but the result is the same... Would really like to know other users' take on this.

Your feedback issue has to be an EQ issue, I have no issue at all getting feedback where and how you'd expect to based on whatever sort of setup I am running. Are your mids scooped in your tones?? It doesn't 'behave' like a guitar cab because it is not a guitar cab; if you need a guitar cab then you need to use a guitar cab to be frank. It's a monitor. The distinction is important to note. FRFR is a different animal than running a cab on stage. But the behavior it does well, very well in fact in my case, is getting controlled feedback at volume. I run primarily with it as a floor monitor in front of me FWIW.

I am surprised at your 'moving enough air' comment; this thing cranks out 130db.... that's louder than a jet engine on BIG plane. Coupled with the very even and as undirectional high end (coaxial speakers rule!)... I just find my experience is very different than yours.

 

[three]

Well, I just dug out my NX12 to try out again after playing exclusively with my Atomic and cab setup for a few weeks, and I'm shocked at how much detail I've been missing from my tone using this setup. If only I could get the RCF to behave like a guitar cab I would be far happier using it for backline instead. Trouble is, I just don't feel it moving enough air to fill the stage, and I can't get it to feed back naturally at a sensible volume. I've had it on the floor and on a pole but the result is the same... Would really like to know other users' take on this.

This is quite similar to what I am experiencing with my 12s. While these latest RCF and B&C drivers are very detailed and "hifi" like, for some reason 12 inch wedges don't seem to push the amount of air required for a floor wedge design in a live band setting. Its almost as if they are missing a couple of octaves in the low end. My guess is that they just don't take to small box designs and need quite a bit of corrective EQ. When I plug into the 15s I never get the feeling I am missing anything. All of my patches done with headphones translate effortlessly on the 15s, and feel more balanced. The 12s tend to sound a bit aggressive and although they get ridiculously loud they tend to just get swallowed up in a band situation. I wish I knew the answer to your feedback problem. I am quite certain it isn't a volume problem as your RCFs should be surprisingly loud. The RCF wedges are excellent products, and I think you would not be able to find a better wedge for the money. I don't know how far you are from London, but I could probably arrange for you to play through some D&B 15s and see if they react differently to your guitar.

 

[Scott Peterson]

This is quite similar to what I am experiencing with my 12s. While these latest RCF and B&C drivers are very detailed and "hifi" like, for some reason 12 inch wedges don't seem to push the amount of air required for a floor wedge design in a live band setting. Its almost as if they are missing a couple of octaves in the low end. My guess is that they just don't take to small box designs and need quite a bit of corrective EQ. When I plug into the 15s I never get the feeling I am missing anything. All of my patches done with headphones translate effortlessly on the 15s, and feel more balanced. The 12s tend to sound a bit aggressive and although they get ridiculously loud they tend to just get swallowed up in a band situation. I wish I knew the answer to your feedback problem. I am quite certain it isn't a volume problem as your RCFs should be surprisingly loud. The RCF wedges are excellent products, and I think you would not be able to find a better wedge for the money. I don't know how far you are from London, but I could probably arrange for you to play through some D&B 15s and see if they react differently to your guitar.

I am interested in some context from you if you please. What sort of music do you play, guitars, bands, live situations and so on. Your opinions are very different than mine and I'd like to understand why, thank you.

 

[Stringtheorist]

This is quite similar to what I am experiencing with my 12s. While these latest RCF and B&C drivers are very detailed and "hifi" like, for some reason 12 inch wedges don't seem to push the amount of air required for a floor wedge design in a live band setting. Its almost as if they are missing a couple of octaves in the low end. My guess is that they just don't take to small box designs and need quite a bit of corrective EQ. When I plug into the 15s I never get the feeling I am missing anything. All of my patches done with headphones translate effortlessly on the 15s, and feel more balanced. The 12s tend to sound a bit aggressive and although they get ridiculously loud they tend to just get swallowed up in a band situation. I wish I knew the answer to your feedback problem. I am quite certain it isn't a volume problem as your RCFs should be surprisingly loud. The RCF wedges are excellent products, and I think you would not be able to find a better wedge for the money. I don't know how far you are from London, but I could probably arrange for you to play through some D&B 15s and see if they react differently to your guitar.

As you point out, this isn't really about volume, so maybe Scott is right that I haven't got the EQing right. The thing can be screaming at me from a few feet away but I simply won't hear what I need to over the noise of the drums and bass. When I say it's not moving enough air I mean it doesn't fill the stage with sound like a guitar cab with multiple speakers. I've never tried 15s.

BTW, I'm near Huntingdon, and usually get the train into London.

 

[three]

As you point out, this isn't really about volume, so maybe Scott is right that I haven't got the EQing right. The thing can be screaming at me from a few feet away but I simply won't hear what I need to over the noise of the drums and bass. When I say it's not moving enough air I mean it doesn't fill the stage with sound like a guitar cab with multiple speakers. I've never tried 15s.

BTW, I'm near Huntingdon, and usually get the train into London.

I suppose by nature a wedge is designed to focus the sound to a particular point on stage. So not really conducive to off axis listening. They are also designed to be coupled with the floor, which took me a while to figure out why they never seemed to sound right elevated behind me. I am not sure its worse than a traditional 2x12 or 4x12. I have always found that it is also hard to hear yourself with a traditional guitar cab on the floor. The sound seems to blow by your knees and it is never perceived to be loud enough unless your about 10 feet away. However if you elevate it you can hear yourself much better without turning up so loud that the band mix is turned to mush. Its all such a huge learning curve. Perhaps setting them up on either side of the stage as a side fill might be interesting.

 

[merlin17]

You can use it as a wedge or lifted. It has a switch to compensate for the coupling as a wedge.
I'm using two - one at a 45 degree angle from the front, one same angle from the back, the sound is MASSIVE!
The imaging of the coaxial design is so great that I have the impression I had two stacks right next to me.
On little stages one does the job amazingly well, too.
For my styles (Pop, Rock, Country, Fusion) it moves way enough air and I can get feedback easily.
The response is flatter than anything I tried and measured.
The bass response is clear, even and THERE. If you need more than this wedge delivers your sound will sound wrong in every band context IMO.

 

[Stringtheorist]

I suppose by nature a wedge is designed to focus the sound to a particular point on stage. So not really conducive to off axis listening. They are also designed to be coupled with the floor, which took me a while to figure out why they never seemed to sound right elevated behind me. I am not sure its worse than a traditional 2x12 or 4x12. I have always found that it is also hard to hear yourself with a traditional guitar cab on the floor. The sound seems to blow by your knees and it is never perceived to be loud enough unless your about 10 feet away. However if you elevate it you can hear yourself much better without turning up so loud that the band mix is turned to mush. Its all such a huge learning curve. Perhaps setting them up on either side of the stage as a side fill might be interesting.

Exactly my experience with guitar cabs. This is one of the reasons I initially gave up on an amp+cab setup and went for a wedge. However, I found that I had to practically crouch over it to get feedback to sustain. No such problem with a cab, using the same presets.