Radley: "that elusive Fender 'glassy-ness'"

Dpoirier

Dpoirier

Fractal Fanatic
A while back, in the "Parametric EQ tip - Contouring your sound" thread from Radley (thanks!!!), there was a mention of how to use that tip as a step towards a better emulation of the Fender clean tone. Even though I got a lot out of Radley's lesson, I am still unable to emulate a good Fender tone with my Ultra. It is not the Ultra's fault, but my own (so dontcha all go defensive on me!). My experience is not deep enough, and my ears are not good enough. I'll know once I "get there", but I can't "hear my way" to that objective.

And in that same thread, Radley made a mention of using that tip for achieving Fender tones:

Radley said:
I too love a great Fender clean sound, and one thing I have found helpful to re-create that elusive Fender 'glassy-ness' is to use one of the unused para bands with a rather high Q (narrow band peaking) and boost anywhere between 3.5 & 8k. In lower frequency bands this would not sound very good, but when we go beyond 3.5k, the effect is more like a controllable high frequency 'resonator', and it can add a missing HF dimension to pure clean tones.
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Radley, if you're listening in, and if you have a Fendery-clean patch you would be willing to share, I (and many others) would be eternally grateful.
 
No need for this. Just use the Red Wirez IRs with the Twin Reverb sim, and you're there, without any extra eqs or alterting advanced parameters.
 
I think, not know, but think that this was made moot with firmware 9.02/9.03. The Fenders were completely reborn with that 9.02 firmware, which was well after Radley's comments.

If I am wrong, then Radley will point it out.

Just trying to help.

Peace.
 
Scott, you're absolutely right, Radley's post was before the reborn-Fenders thing. I had forgotten about that.

I'm still looking for that elusive Fender tone, however. It might be easier to achieve since 9.02, but I am still working at it.
 
Dpoirier said:
Scott, you're absolutely right, Radley's post was before the reborn-Fenders thing. I had forgotten about that.

I'm still looking for that elusive Fender tone, however. It might be easier to achieve since 9.02, but I am still working at it.
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Have you tried the Red Wirez?
 
tonygtr said:
Dpoirier said:
Scott, you're absolutely right, Radley's post was before the reborn-Fenders thing. I had forgotten about that.

I'm still looking for that elusive Fender tone, however. It might be easier to achieve since 9.02, but I am still working at it.
Click to expand...

Have you tried the Red Wirez?
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No, I have enough trouble finding my way through the factory cabs, I would be totally overwhelmed with the red wirez. Maybe eventually, when I have more time...
 
Well, without them, you're never going to get there. The Red Wirez sounds very different from the stock Fender cabs. Trust me, you NEED these cabs if you want that Fender tone.

To the other guy: The 2 Twin IRs with SM57 at the cone 0 inch is a good place to start.
 
As an electronics guy, I will tell you that the secret to the Fender Clean begins with the famous Blackface tone stack, but possibly even more important is the special circuitry employed in their Blackface reverb models (Princeton, Deluxe, Super, & Twin) - it is the combination of a large gain-reducing resistor (3.3 megohms) and a very small bypass cap (10 to 22pf) in series. The resistor cuts the overall signal WAY back, while the bypass cap allows the extreme (glassy) highs to pass freely with no resistance - this results in a very wispy, airy high frequency boost that is more felt than heard.

This effect is hard for a non-tube circuit to reproduce, but I believe the AFX can do it.

PS: This ultra-hi frequency boost is also the reason most OD/Dist pedals tend to sound fizzy thru a Fender Amp Reverb channel.
 
Radley said:
PS: This ultra-hi frequency boost is also the reason most OD/Dist pedals tend to sound fizzy thru a Fender Amp Reverb channel.
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Ah, that would explain why my old original Boss Overdrive pedal played through a twin in the late 70's as a young lad sounded like crap!

After all these years... :)
 
Radley said:
As an electronics guy, I will tell you that the secret to the Fender Clean begins with the famous Blackface tone stack, but possibly even more important is the special circuitry employed in their Blackface reverb models (Princeton, Deluxe, Super, & Twin) - it is the combination of a large gain-reducing resistor (3.3 megohms) and a very small bypass cap (10 to 22pf) in series. The resistor cuts the overall signal WAY back, while the bypass cap allows the extreme (glassy) highs to pass freely with no resistance - this results in a very wispy, airy high frequency boost that is more felt than heard.

This effect is hard for a non-tube circuit to reproduce, but I believe the AFX can do it.

PS: This ultra-hi frequency boost is also the reason most OD/Dist pedals tend to sound fizzy thru a Fender Amp Reverb channel.
Click to expand...

It's not difficult for a non-tube circuit to reproduce. It's just a basic treble-peaker. It's a passive circuit and, in fact, trivial.

BTW, the Axe-Fx models this.
 
would that be like 'dawks' small [rcl circuit thing] box he made for blackmores guitars cliff??

and how would one dial that in please? :)
 
jimbop said:
would that be like 'dawks' small [rcl circuit thing] box he made for blackmores guitars cliff??

and how would one dial that in please? :)
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No idea what this is.
 
Try the Black 1x12 cabinet. It's to my ears sounds the best for Fender cleans. The black 2x12 sounds a little strange to me. I just downloaded the new Twin IRs from Redwirez today, but have not had a chance to try them. They may replace the Black 1x12 for me, but so far it's the one I use with great results.
 
bdsp8 said:
Try the Black 1x12 cabinet. It's to my ears sounds the best for Fender cleans. The black 2x12 sounds a little strange to me. I just downloaded the new Twin IRs from Redwirez today, but have not had a chance to try them. They may replace the Black 1x12 for me, but so far it's the one I use with great results.
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You're in for a pleasant surprise :cool:
 
FractalAudio said:
Radley said:
As an electronics guy, I will tell you that the secret to the Fender Clean begins with the famous Blackface tone stack, but possibly even more important is the special circuitry employed in their Blackface reverb models (Princeton, Deluxe, Super, & Twin) - it is the combination of a large gain-reducing resistor (3.3 megohms) and a very small bypass cap (10 to 22pf) in series. The resistor cuts the overall signal WAY back, while the bypass cap allows the extreme (glassy) highs to pass freely with no resistance - this results in a very wispy, airy high frequency boost that is more felt than heard.

This effect is hard for a non-tube circuit to reproduce, but I believe the AFX can do it.

PS: This ultra-hi frequency boost is also the reason most OD/Dist pedals tend to sound fizzy thru a Fender Amp Reverb channel.
Click to expand...

It's not difficult for a non-tube circuit to reproduce. It's just a basic treble-peaker. It's a passive circuit and, in fact, trivial.

BTW, the Axe-Fx models this.
Click to expand...

Cliff,

I know what you're saying, but 'many have tried and many have failed', according to a lot of great guitarists - that's why it was referred to by the OP as 'elusive'. IMHO, placing a treble peaker cap across a volume control does not capture the same effect, but it does capture Fender's Bright switch effect. Even Mesa Boogie has used the 3.3M + 10 to 22pf bypass for cleans when no reverb isolation resistor was needed (amps with no reverb).

Cheers,
~Rad~
 
There's no magic. It's a very basic "grid treble peaker". It creates a roughly 5 dB boost at f0 = 10 kHz.

Placing a cap across a volume control is not the same thing. Not even sure why you brought that up.

The original intent of the cap was to compensate for the Miller capacitance. It just happens to be slightly overcompensated and therefore gives a slight high-frequency boost.
 
FractalAudio said:
There's no magic. It's a very basic "grid treble peaker". It creates a roughly 5 dB boost at f0 = 10 kHz.

Placing a cap across a volume control is not the same thing. Not even sure why you brought that up.

The original intent of the cap was to compensate for the Miller capacitance. It just happens to be slightly overcompensated and therefore gives a slight high-frequency boost.
Click to expand...

A 10k boost - that would make sense because a lot of engineers boost at 10k specifically for adding 'air' to the sound. I mentioned the cap across the pot's wiper because I thought that's what you were describing (sorry if it wasn't). I pointed out the fact that Mesa often uses the circuitry I described to enhance their clean tones because I'm sure they would not waste the gain nor the extra parts on circuitry they didn't consider 'majorly' beneficial. Many players swear by the clean sounds from their Mark 3 & 4 amps, which incorporate such circuitry.

The 'glassy' Fender clean sound is not something most of us have experienced from our modelers, and hence the 'elusive' description. Do you feel the AFX has 'nailed' it?

~Rad~
 
So, I tried a PEQ with a 5db boost at ~10K and a fairly narrow Q (peaking) in series with a lg spring reverb and I think it's inching closer to the ideal...

[attachment=0:1iaw4hjc]Clean Brownface.syx[/attachment:1iaw4hjc]


Placebo effect or improvement?
 
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