R E B O O T (Tuner @ heel down causing lockups)

Matt and the engineers are on it, which is something I positively love about FAS, and something you don’t see with other manufacturers.

One thing Fractal Audio has always done is give you access to the settings, even those that can overload or “break” the machine. That’s awesome to me! Instead of limiting you to what they know will work at all times, they let you have things that can be combined to stop the process so you can use them in the places that doesn’t happen. It’s a kind of trust in the user you don’t see often, and they take a lot of flak for it. I’d much rather have it that way, and I hope it never changes!

I‘m interested to see what’s found.
 
Yes. On the one hand, it's good. But on the other hand, when you're standing on stage and you don't know if the device you are relying on will work properly, it's not cool anymore.
What you write is good for experimenting at home. But some people use fractal to earn money.
 
Matt and the engineers are on it, which is something I positively love about FAS, and something you don’t see with other manufacturers.

One thing Fractal Audio has always done is give you access to the settings, even those that can overload or “break” the machine. That’s awesome to me! Instead of limiting you to what they know will work at all times, they let you have things that can be combined to stop the process so you can use them in the places that doesn’t happen. It’s a kind of trust in the user you don’t see often, and they take a lot of flak for it. I’d much rather have it that way, and I hope it never changes!

I‘m interested to see what’s found.
I appreciate the responses and yeah, I like to dig deep in all the parameters that most probably never touch but if they’re there, they need to work haha. If I can’t adjust the slew rate of my power tubes without fear of my unit freezing up, that knob probably shouldn’t be there lol.

I mean, if I turned all those knobs and the amp sounded like absolute garbage and I came to this forum complaining about it, I’d expect ridicule. It would be my own dumb fault. But that’s not what happened. The unit froze and IT itself let out he high pitched digital noise until I turned it off, despite other commenters telling me it didn’t happen. That’s a bug.
 
I have locked mine up and heard this noise as well. I had imported a preset--did not build it from scratch--and the admin asked me if I had ported it from an AXE FXIII patch. I honestly did not know, because I was not the one that created the preset. Out of curiosity, did you build the preset, or import it?

This is the thread for my situation, with patch attached:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/preset-freezes-fm9.177175/
Thanks for chiming in.
I built it from scratch.
 
Yes. On the one hand, it's good. But on the other hand, when you're standing on stage and you don't know if the device you are relying on will work properly, it's not cool anymore.
What you write is good for experimenting at home. But some people use fractal to earn money.
I’ve played professionally since 1976. I’ve been using Fractal gear since 2011. Professionals do their testing at home, and don’t bring untested and risky presets to the stage. I also always have a backup ready, and can be back in the mix in the space of one song if my primary rig fails.

The paying gig is not the place to test things.
 
Matt and the engineers are on it, which is something I positively love about FAS, and something you don’t see with other manufacturers.

One thing Fractal Audio has always done is give you access to the settings, even those that can overload or “break” the machine. That’s awesome to me! Instead of limiting you to what they know will work at all times, they let you have things that can be combined to stop the process so you can use them in the places that doesn’t happen. It’s a kind of trust in the user you don’t see often, and they take a lot of flak for it. I’d much rather have it that way, and I hope it never changes!

I‘m interested to see what’s found.
If by "break" you mean sound bad, then sure, that's an expected outcome of having more versatility. If by "break" you mean stop working altogether and require a reset, then no, there's no way anyone should consider that a feature. Adjusting parameters should not cause the unit to fail.
 
If by "break" you mean sound bad, then sure, that's an expected outcome of having more versatility. If by "break" you mean stop working altogether and require a reset, then no, there's no way anyone should consider that a feature. Adjusting parameters should not cause the unit to fail.
I appreciate that this is your opinion. In mine, this is professional gear and that level of trust within the settings is intended for folks who understand the inherent risks and rewards of tweaking. If you want 100% safety, you’d need to either stay with the presets, or use a device that keeps you herded between the lines.
 
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I appreciate that this is your opinion. In mine, this is professional gear and that level of trust within the settings is intended for folks who understand the inherent risks and rewards of tweaking. If you want 100% safety, you’d need to either stay with the presets, or use a device that keeps you herded between the lines.
It's entirely possible to have access to all the parameters imaginable and not have it crash when they're adjusted. That doesn't make something pro-grade or not. Access to more parameters and buggy software are two completely separate issues. There's no need to conflate them.

It's common sense in software development to catch errors and handle them gracefully rather than crashing.
 
It's entirely possible to have access to all the parameters imaginable and not have it crash when they're adjusted. That doesn't make something pro-grade or not.

It's common sense in software development to catch errors and handle them gracefully rather than crashing.
I don’t want to hijack the thread and, again, I respect that this is your opinion. As Dave Mason said, “We Just Disagree.” You’ve always been able to crash this gear by overloading or setting things that create infinite loops. I like it that way.
 
[…]blaming the user for what is clearly a bug. Maybe it's poor wording.
Nobody is "blaming".

From hard-lessons-learned experience, the comments are saying that it's possible to set up a situation where the system will create sound completely different from what we expected. It's "pilot error", it's "mea culpa", it's "hey, I f*cked up", it's not a death sentence, it's not a big deal, we get to make mistakes. And, we, in the community, get to help people isolate the problem and adjust the setting, or, if, after others with more experience agree there's an issue, we mark it as a bug, along with the information so it's reproducible, and pass it to Fractal. That's how the community works.

That the system made undesirable sound or locked up is NOT a clear sign that there is a bug, especially if it happened after the user adjusted something in their own preset. If EVERY preset did it it would point at the system, or a very stubborn, determined, user. "With great power comes great responsibility" the saying goes. Fractal isn't about to protect us from ourselves, nor should they. They have put in an extremely flexible and powerful firmware, but we can do things that cause it to make bad sounds, lock up, or be unresponsive.

I can make my system go berserk by adding two blocks and connecting them. Should Fractal take away that ability? Absolutely not, because the blocks are extremely useful, and I was careless. I can make it generate terrible screaming sounds. How do I know? I did it. I can also take it to the very edge of that and get the sound I was after because I learned what not to do. I don't want the system stepping in and telling me what I can't do unless I'm going to physically damage it, and we're assured there are safeguards in place to keep that from happening because these systems are over-engineered that way. Several times I thought I'd broken my FM3 after pushing it well over the edge, had to power it off, and when I powered it on it was fine, I could start at the previous save, screw it up again, ad infinitum, until I learned my lesson or got it to work.

You really shouldn't have to constantly back up your preset as you're building it in case it craps out. Other modelers don't require that, they just work.
"Other modelers" don't allow access to the low-level settings we have, nor do they offer the tools to make it possible to incrementally save and roll forward and back through them. It's basically a simple revision control system similar to what developers have used for years and years, and which has proven to be extremely useful when building and debugging code, or in our case, presets. People overlook the feature regularly, or fail to understand how to use it; I was a programmer for a long time and it's intuitive to me to take advantage of it. Fractal doesn't "require" it, they offer it because it's extremely useful. That other companies don't offer it is not a sign that Fractal doesn't care or is buggy or is forcing us to use it, it's the opposite, they're being thoughtful, helpful and friendly, thinking ahead to supply what will be useful to us.

Are Fractal's products perfect? Ha, no. But the bugs are usually pretty deep and subtle, and they own up when it was a bug, and announce it in the release notes for a revision. But, again, more times than not, it turns out that the user did something that precipitated the situation. And, if possible, at that point Fractal will put in something that keeps it from going beyond the point of no return unless that would impact other features or the flexibility used by other people… for instance and this. The Fractal team occasionally discuss the tradeoffs and what led to design choices in comments they make, and providing power and maintaining flexibility wins out the majority of the time.

Perhaps Fractal needs a "training wheels" mode so the system acts like other modelers. Most likely that would open up an entirely different can of worms and lead to conversations about how dumb the Fractal ecology is and why spend that much money when some other modeler can do it for a lot less?
 
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It's common sense in software development to catch errors and handle them gracefully rather than crashing.
It's preferrable that they be caught and handled gracefully.

I programmed a LONG time in assembler on up, and there are times errors cannot be caught by the software, and the preferred solution is to let the app crash so we could find the root cause. Attempting to catch errors the wrong way caused more problems as the program would get into a loop and eat the real errors and messages; I was tech-lead, and my coworkers would try catching everything and we'd get code spewing meaningless errors into the logs, eventually killing the machine. I'd turn off their attempts, get a meaningful error from the system, and we could do something about it.

The mantra was "Never try to catch an error you don't know how to handle."
 
Yes. On the one hand, it's good. But on the other hand, when you're standing on stage and you don't know if the device you are relying on will work properly, it's not cool anymore.
What you write is good for experimenting at home. But some people use fractal to earn money.
I have been using Fractal products live for hundreds of shows since 2014 and have never had a problem.
 
I have been using Fractal products live for hundreds of shows since 2014 and have never had a problem
Me too. And the results of this is? We are discussing the specific situation here regarding the FM9 which I am going to buy as soon as it arrives in Europe.
What's funny is we're still only on 1.0 version... Just wait until after a few months of improvements and bug fixes!
Does this mean that FM9 is in beta for now?
We'll wait, we'll see ... :)
 
FYI, I’ve played live with a variety of presets based off this one a handful of times now without incident.

Maybe it was the particular set of tweaks I kept making that first night ¯\(ツ)
 
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