Question: Reducing gain / volume globally vs. in each patch

[browlett]

I'm looking for some theoretical and (ultimately) practical answers to something and I'm hoping that you knowledgeable people can save me some time and/or headache:

If I were to go to the last parameter ("Gain") where you find the global EQ and gain settings for each output by hitting the "Global" button on the AXE-FX, and I reduced the overall "Gain" of output 1 (and/or 2) by a certain number of decibels, would it have the exact same effect as (instead) going to each patch and reducing the "Level" parameter in the amp block of each patch by the same number of decibels?

Specifically, if I were to reduce the "level" of the amp block in each of my patches by (let's say) 2.6 decibels, would it have the exact same overall effect as globally just reducing the gain of the output by 2.6 decibels, instead?

I ask because I'm realizing that I'm creating my patches too "hot". A few of them are clipping at the output stage and I need to reduce them by a certain number of decibels. I was tempted to just fix each patch, but I literally have over 100 of them that I've created and I have them set up with a perfect overall volume blend for loud live usage. I've spent months getting them all just the right volume in relation to each other. I don't want to mess up my volume mix and don't want to have to change over 100 patches this way if I don't have to for now. If I just reduce the output gain globally, will it have the same effect as if I did each patch individually 1 by 1 by the same number of decibels?

Thanks, in advance, for the feedback, advice, and education on this.

 

[gittarzann]

I have always wanted a better explanation of this as well.

I have read that the individual blocks don't clip, but that the total of all the gain in the patch can clip when it is converted to analog.

My lack of understanding is similar to your question.

Say I have to lower the amp block by 18 dB to not clip the output...is that lowering the signal so much that the blocks after it are not being driven enough to have a nice gain level for the remainder of the patch...or do the blocks after the amp block not need a certain level of signal for optimal performance.

To my ear it does seem to make a difference, but maybe it is my imagination.

 

[javajunkie]

I have always wanted a better explanation of this as well.

I have read that the individual blocks don't clip, but that the total of all the gain in the patch can clip when it is converted to analog.

My lack of understanding is similar to your question.

Say I have to lower the amp block by 18 dB to not clip the output...is that lowering the signal so much that the blocks after it are not being driven enough to have a nice gain level for the remainder of the patch...or do the blocks after the amp block not need a certain level of signal for optimal performance.

To my ear it does seem to make a difference, but maybe it is my imagination.

Unless the blocks following the amp are non-linear, drive effects for example, it doesn't really matter. You are not driving those effects blocks, you are processing them. If it is a linear function the signal level will not change the tone, just the volume. If it still concerns you or you are using non-linear effects after the amp, you can turn it down at the layout-mixer menu.

 

[javajunkie]

I'm looking for some theoretical and (ultimately) practical answers to something and I'm hoping that you knowledgeable people can save me some time and/or headache:

If I were to go to the last parameter ("Gain") where you find the global EQ and gain settings for each output by hitting the "Global" button on the AXE-FX, and I reduced the overall "Gain" of output 1 (and/or 2) by a certain number of decibels, would it have the exact same effect as (instead) going to each patch and reducing the "Level" parameter in the amp block of each patch by the same number of decibels?

Specifically, if I were to reduce the "level" of the amp block in each of my patches by (let's say) 2.6 decibels, would it have the exact same overall effect as globally just reducing the gain of the output by 2.6 decibels, instead?

I ask because I'm realizing that I'm creating my patches too "hot". A few of them are clipping at the output stage and I need to reduce them by a certain number of decibels. I was tempted to just fix each patch, but I literally have over 100 of them that I've created and I have them set up with a perfect overall volume blend for loud live usage. I've spent months getting them all just the right volume in relation to each other. I don't want to mess up my volume mix and don't want to have to change over 100 patches this way if I don't have to for now. If I just reduce the output gain globally, will it have the same effect as if I did each patch individually 1 by 1 by the same number of decibels?

Thanks, in advance, for the feedback, advice, and education on this.

Good question, easy to test. Cause one of your patches to clip and lower the global level.

 

[browlett]

javajunkie,

Thanks for the reply. I think I may not be asking this correctly...

I have already "tested" it, so to say. I reduced the global gain for output 1 by 2 db and it took care of the clipping on the patches that were doing it the worst. I can just leave it that way. But, going forward I want to create patches that won't clip with the global gain set at zero db. I may eventually have to fix each one of my many other patches individually to bring them each down so all of my volumes still match up. My ultimate question (in this scenario) would be... "If I reduced each of my patches by 2db either in the amp blocks for each patch or the mix tab on the layout menu for each patch, will it have the same overall effect on my volume mix between all patches that doing it globally did?"

The only way for me to test that is to go and adjust every single patch, which I'd like to avoid doing, just in case it doesn't work after all that effort and I then would need to go back and fix them all again. I was wondering if anyone has tried it both ways and had some advice. ...Or, if one of you knew what would happen.

 

[javajunkie]

javajunkie,

Thanks for the reply. I think I may not be asking this correctly...

I have already "tested" it, so to say. I reduced the global gain for output 1 by 2 db and it took care of the clipping on the patches that were doing it the worst. I can just leave it that way. But, going forward I want to create patches that won't clip with the global gain set at zero db. I may eventually have to fix each one of my many other patches individually to bring them each down so all of my volumes still match up. My ultimate question (in this scenario) would be... "If I reduced each of my patches by 2db either in the amp blocks for each patch or the mix tab on the layout menu for each patch, will it have the same overall effect on my volume mix between all patches that doing it globally did?"

The only way for me to test that is to go and adjust every single patch, which I'd like to avoid doing, just in case it doesn't work after all that effort and I then would need to go back and fix them all again. I was wondering if anyone has tried it both ways and had some advice. ...Or, if one of you knew what would happen.

Yes, it would be the same. You can just do it in the layout, mixer menu.

 

[gittarzann]

I have always wanted a better explanation of this as well.

I have read that the individual blocks don't clip, but that the total of all the gain in the patch can clip when it is converted to analog.

My lack of understanding is similar to your question.

Say I have to lower the amp block by 18 dB to not clip the output...is that lowering the signal so much that the blocks after it are not being driven enough to have a nice gain level for the remainder of the patch...or do the blocks after the amp block not need a certain level of signal for optimal performance.

To my ear it does seem to make a difference, but maybe it is my imagination.

Unless the blocks following the amp are non-linear, drive effects for example, it doesn't really matter. You are not driving those effects blocks, you are processing them. If it is a linear function the signal level will not change the tone, just the volume. If it still concerns you or you are using non-linear effects after the amp, you can turn it down at the layout-mixer menu.

So if I lower my amp output to -50dB and only have linear fx after that point...no issue with tone should come in to play ?

What if you are using non-linear fx in series ? Should you try and adjust for unity gain and then lower at the output ?

Is there a list of linear and nonlinear fx some where ?

 

[javajunkie]

I have always wanted a better explanation of this as well.

I have read that the individual blocks don't clip, but that the total of all the gain in the patch can clip when it is converted to analog.

My lack of understanding is similar to your question.

Say I have to lower the amp block by 18 dB to not clip the output...is that lowering the signal so much that the blocks after it are not being driven enough to have a nice gain level for the remainder of the patch...or do the blocks after the amp block not need a certain level of signal for optimal performance.

To my ear it does seem to make a difference, but maybe it is my imagination.

Unless the blocks following the amp are non-linear, drive effects for example, it doesn't really matter. You are not driving those effects blocks, you are processing them. If it is a linear function the signal level will not change the tone, just the volume. If it still concerns you or you are using non-linear effects after the amp, you can turn it down at the layout-mixer menu.

So if I lower my amp output to -50dB and only have linear fx after that point...no issue with tone should come in to play ?

What if you are using non-linear fx in series ? Should you try and adjust for unity gain and then lower at the output ?

Is there a list of linear and nonlinear fx some where ?

why worry about it, don't do it at the amp. do at the layout mixer menu. Then you don't need to worry about it.Even adjusting at the amp level parameter, with a few db it isn't going to matter much anyway. Drive algorithms following the amp won't be hit as hard but that's about it.

 

[browlett]

Javajunkie,

Thanks again for the feedback.