Production approaches for that "dueling guitar" sound + vocals?

[Dolphinado]

Hi friends! (Let me know if this isn't the right place for this thread, I wasn't sure!)

So I've got an interesting production challenge - I write all my music to have rhythm guitar, lead guitar, bass, drums, and vocals. The lead guitar isn't reserved for solos – the rhythm and lead guitar interplay with each other constantly throughout my music, so it's sort of essential that they be "on equal footing" in a mix. (Think like, a modern Iron Maiden, At the Drive-In, Coheed and Cambria, or Closure in Moscow, etc.) Because of that, I can't approach the production like you might for a typical modern metal sound (double or quad tracked guitars), because there is never only one riff happening. Plus, I'm not writing instrumental music - I have vocal melodies that also need to have a strong presence.

The problem: I'm not sure how to approach this sort of "dueling guitar" production style with my Axe-Fx 3 (or I mean, in general tbh), without either making the rhythm guitar feel a bit weak and anemic, or without pushing the lead guitar into the background. I've found a lot of helpful videos on recording approaches from many of the fine folks here on this forum, buuuut unfortunately a lot of those songs are either only 1 concurrent guitar part, or completely instrumental. Here's what I've considered so far:

1. Hard pan rhythm guitar left and lead guitar right. Vocals in the center.

Pros: Seems like the usual approach for this style of songwriting? And the two guitar parts are on equal footing.
Cons: They aren't really on equal footing. The rhythm guitar sounds smaller and less impactful than I'd like, and the mix can sound a bit lopsided in sections where the lead guitar isn't playing.

2. Double track the rhythm guitar part and pan it hard left and right. Put the lead guitar part in the center. Vocals also in the center.

Pros: The rhythm part sounds huge and thick, and much more like what I want!
Cons: It makes the lead guitar part clash hard against the vocals. One of the two has to be de-emphasized in the mix. But, if it's the lead guitar, gets pushed to the back and makes it less intelligible, especially when it's playing over the vocals. It gives the feeling of a massive wall of sound pushing out the lead guitar part, to the point that it sounds kinda like some light noodling in the background.

3. Hard pan rhythm guitar left and lead guitar right. Hard pan rhythm and lead guitar reverbs to the opposite side of the dry signal. Vocals in the center.

No idea what this sounds like yet.

4. Double track all the guitar parts. Hard pan track 1 rhythm and lead guitar left and right. Pan track 2 rhythm and lead guitar to be closer to the center, but on opposite sides. Vocals in the center.

No idea what this sounds like yet.

5. ??? Another approach?

How would you approach this kind of production? (1 rhythm guitar and 1 lead guitar part that need to balance with each other and with vocals throughout a song.) If it would help I can post some examples of the kind of song I mean.

 

[Mark Scrivener]

Two guitars, bass, drums, and vocal is a very common lineup in many genres. I do lots of production work for singer songwriters and small bands, which in my area tend to be pop/soul/country/etc, so very different from your style, but the same concepts apply.

First off, you want to separate similar sources....like two guitars. This means you will often hard pan guitars to opposite sides. Panning Guitar 1 left and the delay for guitar 1 right is also a common trick (with the opposite for guitar 2). But even more important than your panning choices or amp settings, etc, is what each of these instruments is playing. Take a listen to hit tracks that are somewhat similar to the songs you are trying to create and dissect how they are arranged. Are both playing cords? Strummed or arpeggiated? Are they in similar or different registers?

While amp settings and mixing can have a huge impact, what the various instruments are playing (i.e. the "arrangement") is by far the biggest factor. Pick apart the arrangements of songs you like with a critical ear and you will start to understand how to create the sounds you seek.

 

[simeon]

all the answers you need are out there already in the music that's been recorded over the last 50 years, as mark said. spend a few days picking apart the arrangements of music recorded by bands with the same lineup. there are lots. thin lizzy, maiden, judas priest, metallica, ac/dc, guns & roses, rolling stones....list goes on and on. personally, i would go for rhythm guitars panned left and right and solos overdubbed in the middle. if there are lots of "fills" and little lead breaks in the rhythm parts, then keep those over to the sides. think about where the focus needs to be at any one point in the tune. stuff in the middle will hold your attention much more than stuff at the sides.

 

[simeon]

one tune that popped to mind (cos they're one of my favourite bands) is "cowboy song" by thin lizzy. i suspect it's not your cup of tea, but have a listen to how the two guitars play almost the same rhythm parts, but the differences make for a very interesting "dance" around the stereo field. there's lead breaks (played in harmony) during the choruses by the rhythm guitars, but the solos are overdubbed in the middle

 

[shemihazazel]

Also consider that in the scenario of rhythm panned hard left/right, you can place the leads anywhere between there and the center, leaving plenty of room for the vocals in the center and leads in the field without stepping on each other.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Some people would scoff at this, but for a modern approach to this, listen to some of Avenged Sevenfold’s stuff as this is pretty much in 3/4’s of their songs.

First thing I would go for is hard panning the rhythm tracks and panning the leads around 30% on each side (stereo guitar track) and leaving the vocals right up the center.

Definitely put some time into finding a lead tone that’s going to separate itself from the rhythm tracks, IE- don’t track the leads with the same amps/settings as you did the rhythms. That’ll help differentiate the guitar parts and give them their own space. You might have to dick around with the EQ on the leads so they don’t eat into the vocals, but if they’re panned away from center, your job is halfway finished.

 

[DougB415]

Option #2

 

[Dolphinado]

Some people would scoff at this, but for a modern approach to this, listen to some of Avenged Sevenfold’s stuff as this is pretty much in 3/4’s of their songs.

First thing I would go for is hard panning the rhythm tracks and panning the leads around 30% on each side (stereo guitar track) and leaving the vocals right up the center.

Definitely put some time into finding a lead tone that’s going to separate itself from the rhythm tracks, IE- don’t track the leads with the same amps/settings as you did the rhythms. That’ll help differentiate the guitar parts and give them their own space. You might have to dick around with the EQ on the leads so they don’t eat into the vocals, but if they’re panned away from center, your job is halfway finished.

Oh man for some reason I totally didn’t think to look to Avenged Sevenfold as a reference (I guess it’s been awhile for me since I’ve listened to their stuff) - thanks so much for the rec!

This approach seems very promising - I’ll give it a shot! Good call on finding a distinct lead tone too - that’s currently where I’m at in my recording process right now. I know for the current song I’m working on there’s one section where I do want a single tracked, hard panned rhythm and lead trading off with each other, but this sounds like it’ll work great for everything else. Thanks!!

Two guitars, bass, drums, and vocal is a very common lineup in many genres. I do lots of production work for singer songwriters and small bands, which in my area tend to be pop/soul/country/etc, so very different from your style, but the same concepts apply.

First off, you want to separate similar sources....like two guitars. This means you will often hard pan guitars to opposite sides. Panning Guitar 1 left and the delay for guitar 1 right is also a common trick (with the opposite for guitar 2). But even more important than your panning choices or amp settings, etc, is what each of these instruments is playing. Take a listen to hit tracks that are somewhat similar to the songs you are trying to create and dissect how they are arranged. Are both playing cords? Strummed or arpeggiated? Are they in similar or different registers?

While amp settings and mixing can have a huge impact, what the various instruments are playing (i.e. the "arrangement") is by far the biggest factor. Pick apart the arrangements of songs you like with a critical ear and you will start to understand how to create the sounds you seek.

This is really helpful advice - thank you! I’ve definitely got some song arrangements to pick apart now - do you have any recommendations in your genres of choice that you think would be worth studying? (Doesn’t have to be heavy music - I’m always down to learn from just about anything!)

one tune that popped to mind (cos they're one of my favourite bands) is "cowboy song" by thin lizzy. i suspect it's not your cup of tea, but have a listen to how the two guitars play almost the same rhythm parts, but the differences make for a very interesting "dance" around the stereo field. there's lead breaks (played in harmony) during the choruses by the rhythm guitars, but the solos are overdubbed in the middle

Oh I love me some Thin Lizzy! I think I know what you mean - it seems to give their songs both a really “live” and lively feel, and really makes the soundstage sound wide in a unique way. I’ll have to pay closer attention to their production now

 

[GaryB]

In addition to everything mentioned, don't forget that when carving out space in a mix, EQ is your friend.

 

[Dave Merrill]

This and related, starting with the parts themselves. Parts and tones need to leave room for each other, and panning isn't really a good substitute.

 

[simeon]

don't forget there's also no right or wrong. there are conventions that have been adopted over the years and probably just because they work well, but that doesn't mean you have to follow them for your music. just listen critically and have other people listen to your mixes and ask them how they feel about them. if the decisions you make detract from the music, then they're the wrong decisions

 

[getlostinsound]

Another vote for focusing on arrangements and EQ before doing much with panning. Always remember to check your mixes in mono, because you don’t know what people will be using to listen to them.

 

[RevDrucifer]

Another vote for focusing on arrangements and EQ before doing much with panning. Always remember to check your mixes in mono, because you don’t know what people will be using to listen to them.

Good call, especially in consideration that the OP wants to put specific things hard left or right. It'd be a bummer to lay down some killer stuff and anyone listening in mono only hears one side. Though these days, I think most of those bluetooth speakers are summed from the left and right side instead of putting out just one side. Still, checking mixes in mono should generally be a must-do. You can certainly hear a lot going on (or not) that way.

 

[getlostinsound]

Good call, especially in consideration that the OP wants to put specific things hard left or right. It'd be a bummer to lay down some killer stuff and anyone listening in mono only hears one side. Though these days, I think most of those bluetooth speakers are summed from the left and right side instead of putting out just one side. Still, checking mixes in mono should generally be a must-do. You can certainly hear a lot going on (or not) that way.

Yep, my concern wasn’t so much missing a side (that happens all the time when you hear music in stores and restaurants though). Bluetooth speakers, or any system that sums the left and right, are the main reason to check. If you hard-pan 2 guitars (which is fine, BTW) but don’t check the mix in mono, you’ll never know whether those 2 guitars sound ok, stand out from each other, have their own place in the frequency spectrum, etc. when they are played together through the same speaker.

 

[Mark Scrivener]

....This is really helpful advice - thank you! I’ve definitely got some song arrangements to pick apart now - do you have any recommendations in your genres of choice that you think would be worth studying? (Doesn’t have to be heavy music - I’m always down to learn from just about anything!)
..

As Simeon stated, there really is no right or wrong, its is really about what "YOU" find appealing. Very similar to when my students learn to solo and I tell them to steal ideas from players they like. If I tell them who to copy and what to copy from them then they are going to wind up sounding like me instead of finding their own voice.

That said, for heavy rock, dueling guitars, I think Simeon (again) nailed it with Thin Lizzy. Metallica also comes to mind. Or how about the dueling leads in the Eagles "Hotel California"? Again, it is often more what they play that makes the arrangement work...much more than just panning and eq choices.

But take anything that has been a huge hit and there are lessons to be learned about production and arrangement. I think it is important to spend time listening to music styles that are outside of what we prefer...and listen to them critically to understand why they work and how they are put together. The Beatles are always instructive - you can find the genesis of most modern genres in their arrangements (listen to Abby Road for a Moog synth on bass lines as one surprising example). Heck, listen to modern pop singers for arrangement ideas, Billie Eilish (no guitars typically, but still things to be learned), Taylor Swift (older stuff often has guitar and banjo, sometimes two guitars, newer stuff more bass heavy), etc. There are ideas there that can be used in any genre. If you only listen to one genre you might be blind sided when someone turns your favorite genre upside down with an idea they took from listening to a radically different genre.

 

[Zedhed]

One of the best 'Dual guitars' sound one can learn from is anything Wishbone Ash has done.

 

[Raab90]

Have you ever seen a band where both guitarists use the same guitar, same amps, same effects, and eq their amps the same?

Then why would that happen in a studio setup?

Rythm guitar and lead guitars are usually very different. Different amps, different guitars... think of the tracks as different guitarrists, with different tastes and styles, instead of rhythm and lead. This logic usually makes each stand on their own in the mix.

Also, pan one left, pan the other one right. Not a hard pan, unless you’re going for some kind of effect.

For solos, record them in isolated tracks, and boost them 3dB AFTER the amp+cab part of the chain, and pan it to the center.

If you want dueling/alternating solos, when guitarrists take turns, same rules apply. Each guitarrist sticks to his own amp. This time, pan them to the sides a little though.

 

[Mark Scrivener]

....Also, pan one left, pan the other one right. Not a hard pan, unless you’re going for some kind of effect.
.....

Actually, the few big shot producers/mix engineers I've had the pleasure to converse with have told me at the major studios nearly EVERYTHING is panned hard left. hard right, or straight up the center. Go listen to classic recordings with good headphones and I think you will be surprised how prevalent hard panning is. Their logic was you are trying to create separation between sources, and hard panning does that better than anything else.

 

[JCBitB]

Arrangement is huge. It's tough for those of us guys who layer and layer and then try and sort out the problems we've created in the mix. Revisit your parts and see if you can massage them in a way that makes them more cohesive. I love the bands you cite as influences/references, so post when you're done!

 

[Dolphinado]

Arrangement is huge. It's tough for those of us guys who layer and layer and then try and sort out the problems we've created in the mix. Revisit your parts and see if you can massage them in a way that makes them more cohesive. I love the bands you cite as influences/references, so post when you're done!

Will do! Just have to think of an artist name first haha

Part of the reason I posted this is because I started out thinking one of Coheed's production styles would work for this song (either old school, where it was just a single-tracked rhythm and lead track panned left and right, or new school, where the rhythm guitar is double, sometimes quad tracked, and the lead is single-tracked slightly off center from the vocals), and found that I wasn't really a fan of either one, when I really sat down to think about it. Thankfully I've done enough recording tests now that I'm pretty confident the arrangement will work as-is for this kind of sound - hopefully I can pull it off with whatever production approach I end up going with.