POLL: The most accurate PAF replica...

[Dave Merrill]

Thinking about this, I may have increased my monitor volume and then compensated by dropping the gain and adjusting (as an example) the MV in the amp block. I think I might have been trying to increase the headroom of the amp sound. I feel stupid to admit this at my age, but I have also only recently started to learn how to turn the volume and tone knobs down on my guitar for different dynamics. I always thought that they had to be set to 10! LOL.

Sacrilege!

 

[SpudMan]

Sacrilege!

Dave, Do you know which model ThroBak's your Collings has? And on this topic, if you were looking at ThroBak for new vintage PAF style pickups, which model would you pick? I am in the early stages of planning a Warmoth Regal (LP) build and thinking of the ThroBak Kossof pickups as I am always chasing the tone he got on songs like Fire and Water, and Oh I Wept from Free, that warm tone with lots of sustain. I know most of that is (was) in his fingers and head, but .....

 

[Dave Merrill]

Dave, Do you know which model ThroBak's your Collings has? And on this topic, if you were looking at ThroBak for new vintage PAF style pickups, which model would you pick? I am in the early stages of planning a Warmoth Regal (LP) build and thinking of the ThroBak Kossof pickups as I am always chasing the tone he got on songs like Fire and Water, and Oh I Wept from Free, that warm tone with lots of sustain. I know most of that is (was) in his fingers and head, but .....

According to the (quite reputable) seller, they're "ThroBak ER-MVX humbuckers" .

According to the spec sheet Collings sent me when I asked for it, they're "Throbak ER Custom Humbuckers".

As to what Throbaks I'd choose if I was choosing, I'm not the right person to ask, I don't know much about the details of what they offer. I hadn't heard of them, and maybe Collings either, don't remember, until I played this guitar in my most local shop, dug it a lot, and asked here about both. @Andy Eagle spoke very highly of both, as you've probably seen, and I think some other folks too. I went back to the shop multiple times to play it, eventually got over my shyness about the money, at least enough to pull the trigger, and the rest is history.

If I had to bet, I'd guess they'd work with you to figure out some likely candidates for your wishes, and might let you return ones that didn't float your boat. However, I MADE THAT UP!!! Talk to them!

 

[SpudMan]

According to the (quite reputable) seller, they're "ThroBak ER-MVX humbuckers" .

According to the spec sheet Collings sent me when I asked for it, they're "Throbak ER Custom Humbuckers".

As to what Throbaks I'd choose if I was choosing, I'm not the right person to ask, I don't know much about the details of what they offer. I hadn't heard of them, and maybe Collings either, don't remember, until I played this guitar in my most local shop, dug it a lot, and asked here about both. @Andy Eagle spoke very highly of both, as you've probably seen, and I think some other folks too. I went back to the shop multiple times to play it, eventually got over my shyness about the money, at least enough to pull the trigger, and the rest is history.

If I had to bet, I'd guess they'd work with you to figure out some likely candidates for your wishes, and might let you return ones that didn't float your boat. However, I MADE THAT UP!!! Talk to them!

Hmm, the Koss ThroBak's seem to be the opposite of the ER's, with the neck pickup on the Koss being "hotter" than the bridge. Yours are the opposite. Not sure what that means, but as you say, Jon at ThroBak would I am sure help me decide.

 

[Budda]

Hmm, the Koss ThroBak's seem to be the opposite of the ER's, with the neck pickup on the Koss being "hotter" than the bridge. Yours are the opposite. Not sure what that means, but as you say, Jon at ThroBak would I am sure help me decide.

They make a sig set for the artist who’s tone you are after, im not quite sure why there’s a question here. Please post pics and clips when the build is done

 

[Churchhill]

I am a HUGE! P90 fan, so yeah. I tried every P90 from the german builders. Personally I would go for the Amber OR! Häussel 56. Häussel has a 53 and 56 P90 set, the 56 is that what you imagine if you think of leslie west. The 53 are sounding more like the old jazz boxes, more open, less mids.
The Kloppmann 52 has more mids than the häussel 53, roughly the same output.
The Amber P90 Standard sits in the middle of them.

In which guitar are the P90s going?

I tried several Ambers as well as some customs. The Spirit of 59 are on the brighter end of the PAF spectrum, I would go with the O-Tone in the Bridge which is the Spirit with a touch more output and mids ( I love that PU!) and the Spirit of 59 in the neck. The spirit in the neck sounds really open, and not too dark. But also this depends on the sound youre going for. It has Alnico 4 magnets. If you like for example Slashs big and fat alnico 2 tone, the Spirits wont get you there.

You exactly described what I'm looking for in a P90... I've got an SG Jr and a PRS McCarty Soapbar that could both do with new sets. For the SG, I'd like something that sounds like how you describe the Haussel 56, same thing with the Haussel 53 and the PRS. I'll definitely look into these more when it comes time. Thank you for this!!

Yeah, I was looking at the O-Tone, too. I do like A4 magnets and I've got the Slash sound covered, looking for something brighter in the neck. This set sounds like something I'd be very interested in.

 

[Churchhill]

IIRC, there was a MHS II set of pickups made, I can't tell you what the difference is between the MHS-but I have a friend that would know.

I've had a difficult time liking the recent Custombuckers and their derivatives- the "telecaster on steroids" phrase is killing me almost as quickly as the pickups themselves. The PAF pickups I've played have a pleasant warm low end that these pickups lack.

I've had good luck with OX4, & Bare Knuckle. Seymour Duncan Queen Buckers are so great- clean/EOB tones are inspiring. Dave Hinson (Killer Vintage) is selling "Better Buckers" in A5 and A2 configurations. A little hotter than standard, but they sound great (A5s preferred) and I always use the volume knob-- I highly recommend starting with all knobs on 5 and setting up some sounds. Most of the classic players we all love to hear never put their knobs all the way up. Honorable Mention - Brandon Wound, Guilty Pleasure- EJ DiMarzio.

From what I've heard, the MHS II are like patent numbers, short A5 and 42 poly. The MHS are like early PAFs, 42 PE, A2 in the bridge and A3 in the neck. I don't have any personal experience with the MHS II, but the MHS are some of my favorite pickups at the moment.

I actually do like the Custombuckers, but am getting plenty of low end warmth out of them. They aren't quite as compressed as I'd like, as you say, more like a Tele in that regard, so I can understand why you don't like them.

I was looking at the SD Queenbucker, hard to find any clips of it, but the description sounds intriguing to say the least and if they're half as good as their Antiquities, well... I'll have to take a look at the Better Buckers you mentioned, I wasn't aware of them.

Yep, that's one of the key things, I think, about getting great sounds from a PAF... I usually start around 3 on the guitar and roll up until the sound starts to come in, as you say, usually around 5. I want to have a little left under that and a little more over that. Nigel was right, if you're on 10 and you need that little extra... where do you go?? Seriously, though, if I'm playing on 10, I'm probably doing something high gain and not playing a PAF. I nice Tweed or Plexi on 8-10 and a good PAF and I feel like I can coax any sound I want from just the knobs on the guitar and my fingers.

I find Brandonwound interesting... I think that's who Gibson hired a few years ago to run their Pickup Shop. Brandon Wound is still around, though, having been taken over by Zach Oswald who was Jared Brandon's apprentice. I have no direct experience with either older or new Brandonwound, but YT demos of either sound decent to pretty good IMO. Have you tried any of their pickups, and if so, what did you think of them?

 

[Churchhill]

I’m happy with Häussel 1959, BKP Mule or Bulldog Vintage PAF. I don’t know but I believe that Bulldog went out of busines, unfortunately.

Haussel 1959 is on my radar and now I'm interested in their P90s, too. And yeah, The Mule is one of my favorites! I've got a set in a Partscaster, another in an ES-335, and another I'm considering finding a new home for (Les Paul Studio, I think). They are FANTASTIC pickups!!

How would you compare the Haussel to the Mule? Since we've both got Mules, it might help me get a better handle on what the Haussel sounds like.

 

[Churchhill]

All of them

My wallet was afraid you'd say that... LOL!!

Thanks, @Andy Eagle !!

 

[Churchhill]

One thing worth mentioning is a lot of small volume guys are not great at replicating their pickups consistently . Some well known guys put out pickups that could be different models as the same thing. Not all pickups with similar DC and parts sound the same.

I think this is a really good point and something I've wondered about.

I would guess, and this is only a guess, that when a winder gets big enough to hire an extra set of hands, the process of winding changes just a bit, even if it's an automated or even CNC machine doing the winding. Handing the process down introduces the possibility of that process being diluted. I think that's true of any process that includes any human interaction more complex than feeding a hopper.

I think the same may be true of any given individual that repeats the same process for years, I know that I don't do things the same way I did twenty years ago, even if it's just filling ice-cube trays. All of that may sound like an argument for using CNC winders, but... the original PAFs weren't wound on CNC winders and, while CNC may give us an exact replica of a particular piece, does it account for the inconsistencies in any analog system?

A correlation may be found in where modelers were before Fractal... they may have precisely replicated the output of any given tube amp, but they really didn't get it right until Fractal started accounting for all of those analog inconsistencies. If there was a pickup manufacturer that used CNC to model those inconsistencies, I'd be very interested. But, as far as I can tell at this point, they're just copy machines, granted very accurate copy machines. Hmm... Fractal Pickups.... I'd be in in a heartbeat, but I'm not gonna hold my breath, either. Besides, I want Fractal to keep doing what they're doing because I LOVE my AxeFX!!

Anyway, I think this speaks to a fundamental part of what I'm looking for in this quest. Do I want something that comes close? Do I want an exact copy of a specific instance? Or do I want something that replicates the process as close as possible, using period correct materials and processes, that produces a result that is as close to the original, warts and all? Those are ALL valid segments of this particular market niche, but they are all different, too. No right answer or wrong answers to this one.

 

[Churchhill]

Whilst on about PAF style pickups, yesterday I stuck some PAF style pups into a spare Les Paul (Studio, complete with horrible quick connect board).
The guitar had the usual Gibson 490R and (I think?) a 498T pickups. Harsh sounding but OK for heavy rocky stuff.
The first thing I noticed (with the new pickups) was that almost all of my FM3 presets had to have the gain turned down a lot from what I had been using. But the sound is a lot more pleasing to my ears.

The pickups used are some from an inexpensive maker here in the UK in the link;

https://www.arundelguitars.com/product-page/custom-made-p-a-f-style-humbucker-pair

I think I remember you posting about having a good experience with them a while back, something about sending them to you before they sent the bill? My memory doesn't always serve me correctly, but even so, glad to hear that you're liking them!!

I've noticed this same thing with some of the PAF-likes that I have. The first set of them that I really enjoyed, Gibson Burstbucker I and II in this case and around 2003, the first thing that really blew me away was that the sound was just so much more full, more there, more powerful, that I did have to turn the gain down a bit. In turn, everything was that much clearer, that much cleaner, but it still had that power that I'd only found with "high output" pickups before. I've found a few more that do that since then, too.

As an example, earlier today, I was comparing a Les Paul Custom with BKP Rebel Yells to an ES-335 with BKP Mules. Given the difference in wire gauge, wind, and resultant resistance, and the different magnets, they are (maybe not) surprisingly similar in perceived output and sound. The Rebel Yell might be a touch more oomph and the Mules have a touch more clarity, but in a live situation, I could easily switch between one and the other and I would barely notice if I noticed at all. I don't think anyone else would notice much if anything, either, other than the obviously different guitars. If both sets were in otherwise identical guitars, I doubt they would notice.

 

[Churchhill]

You had to turn down the gain going from 498 to paf? Interesting.

I have a high output A8 pickup in one of my guitars, I will unscientifically check this out haha.

See my post above, but... the Rebel Yell is A5 and wound to 14.4k (guessing 43 poly) and the Mule is A4 and wound to 8.4k (guessing 42 PE). My Burstbucker (A2 7.8k), Custombucker (A3 7.9), and MHS (A2 7.8k) all do the same thing... sounds like MUCH more output than would be apparent from the specs.

I know you know this, but just for the record in case someone reads this and isn't aware... resistance is not a good or even a wildly accurate indicator of output. Inductance is a better indicator, but seldom published, and the strength of the magnetic field is a huge part of the equation and how the strings react to that field (e.g. nickel strings vs. steel vs. plated steel, size and shape of the string's core, etc.).

 

[Churchhill]

You could always just get the real deal!

Reverb

LOL! Thought about it... could buy the entire Throbak or ReWind range for the price of admission, but... one can dream, right??

 

[Churchhill]

I would be nice to hear a demo like the one below for the pickups you mentioned in the poll. (16k for an original pair?!?)

So would I!!! Even just one of the winders!!! Seymour Duncan has always done a better job with making demos of their products available, in my opinion. One of the problems I have with Throbak is that what demos they do have are such a motley selection of YT vids that it's impossible to really tell what any of them actually sound like. Many winders don't have any demos listed on their sites. I will say that Stephens Design has some good demos, but nothing much for back-to-back comparisons. ReWind has some decent demos, too.

The best I've found so far are the series on YT that @axes posted earlier (#15 on page 1). There are a handful like that, including one by Guitar Player (I think), but that series is one of the best.

 

[Churchhill]

Thinking about this, I may have increased my monitor volume and then compensated by dropping the gain and adjusting (as an example) the MV in the amp block. I think I might have been trying to increase the headroom of the amp sound. I feel stupid to admit this at my age, but I have also only recently started to learn how to turn the volume and tone knobs down on my guitar for different dynamics. I always thought that they had to be set to 10! LOL.

Ah, don't feel so bad, I still play on 10 a lot of the time! Just not on my PAF guitars (or P90s, or my Jazzmaster, but these are all recent occurrences on my end, too).

For the gain vs pickup thing... I've experienced this on many models in the Axe and in many amps IRL, too. Some (maybe most) PAFs just push the amp harder, that's part of the magic (for me).

 

[Churchhill]

Dave, Do you know which model ThroBak's your Collings has? And on this topic, if you were looking at ThroBak for new vintage PAF style pickups, which model would you pick? I am in the early stages of planning a Warmoth Regal (LP) build and thinking of the ThroBak Kossof pickups as I am always chasing the tone he got on songs like Fire and Water, and Oh I Wept from Free, that warm tone with lots of sustain. I know most of that is (was) in his fingers and head, but .....

FWIW, I've been looking at the KZ-115 which is, from the descriptions, along with the SLE-101, the two major variations. Most of the other Throbak models seem to be variations on these themes, either for specific artist sounds or when specs started changing (long A5, short A5, patent number, T-Tops, Pre-T-Tops, etc.). Also, I've been looking at the DT-102 and PG-102 (without the flipped magnet) mostly because I've liked multiple demos of each.

While I haven't done so personally, yet, everything I've ever seen says that Jon Gundry is very approachable and loves to talk pickups! So, yeah, what @Dave Merrill said... talk to him!!

 

[Sixstring]

LOL! Thought about it... could buy the entire Throbak or ReWind range for the price of admission, but... one can dream, right??

Yeah that was a joke! unless you're one of those lucky ones where money is not a problem!

 

[Sixstring]

I would be nice to hear a demo like the one below for the pickups you mentioned in the poll. (16k for an original pair?!?)

I sat and watched that vid and I can't tell if the pickups were even changed out. I mean most if not all of that demo, one could pull off with pre and post EQ changes.

 

[Churchhill]

Yeah that was a joke! unless you're one of those lucky ones where money is not a problem!

Hey, figured you were joking. It's all good... man, it'd be so nice to have enough money to try them all! I've got a little to play with here, but I still want to make the right decision for me and this thread really has helped me clarify my thoughts, if nothing else.

As @Dave Merrill said back a few pages... I'm having a blast discussing this and researching everything! Still remembering to play and enjoy the things I already have, too! Still gotta change some strings tonight, too (just put new pups in my Firebird), and hearing the result tomorrow (when I can crank it up a bit), is something I've been looking forward to for a looong time (another story, though).

 

[Rex]

A correlation may be found in where modelers were before Fractal... they may have precisely replicated the output of any given tube amp...

They didn't.

...but they really didn't get it right until Fractal started accounting for all of those analog inconsistencies.

Fractal doesn't model inconsistencies. I guarantee the Twin Reverb in my FM9 sounds exactly the same as the Twin Reverb in yours.

You can't really model inconsistencies without a randomizer. And that would be just as disconcerting as a PAF pickup that changed its characteristics randomly.