Playing a real amp after a long break…

Rex Rox said:
Sorry you are correct. I should have dropped the "analog" and just said most pedalboards. Its pretty rare that a pedalboard these days does not include a digital delay or reverb. As soon as you use one you are back to a couple of ms or more.
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Many digital delay pedals don't add any latency since they have a fully analog dry signal path. The digital processing lag is added to the wet signal, but that's not an issue since the repeats are supposed to be delayed anyway. Same for other time based effects like reverb.
 
The other day I ran into a need for a smaller “grab and go” unit than my favorite tube combo, or for the FM3+FRFR. I d already spent time with a Tone King Falcon, and found one in mint condition and grabbed it.

It’s 12 watts with a single 10” in a cabinet that makes it sound huge. While I love my Fractals there’s occasionally a time for something different, that can be dropped into place in a few seconds and be ready to go, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. It’s all about the best solution for the situation.
 
I've just had a slightly weird week. I was trying to figure out who to blame for that, and I think it's mainly this thread, and principally @Greg Ferguson. Let's preface with this: I do not have any reason to buy any "real" amplifiers. I still have a few. I haul them out only occasionally. I am totally invested in the world of Fractal Audio.

However, last Tuesday evening a post turned up in a closed Facebook group to say an old friend had a Tone King Imperial Mk 2 combo for sale. In perfect condition with original box, only owned a few months. Wasn't cheap, but certainly I couldn't have found a new one cheaper, and guessed the friend needed the money quickly. So I messaged him, and sent the asking price there and then.

I wasn't really sure why. I had never owned a "boutique" Fender influenced amp, still have a SF Princeton Reverb, but regret selling my SF Deluxe Reverb many years ago. Maybe just an itch that needed scratching.

The amp turned up on Thursday, in its original box, foot pedal still in bubblewrap, with a barely thumbed owners manual. I took it out to my studio to check it worked, and plugged in a Telecaster. Yep, holy crap, it does indeed do Silver Face and Black Face Fender sounds to a tee on the "rhythm" channel. And while not completely ear-splitting, it has enough power for a club or pub gig. I then plugged in a Les Paul Standard, and yep, it sounds OK (no-one is going to wax too much about that, but some good tones in there). So I set about the "Lead" channel to see if it can do excruciating "Tweed" tortured by humbucker sounds. It was SOOO good at that! I grabbed my favourite Les Paul Junior to see what it made of a P90, and things just got better and better.

So the plan for the weekend just gone was to fire up the Axe FX III, and see if I can replicate the Tone King well enough, particularly the lead/tweed channel. That didn't happen. (Yet...)

The Axe FX rig has had the weekend off. Every guitar except my old Junior has stayed in its case. I just haven't been able to get past exploring what this amp and my ancient Gibson student guitar are capable of. At the same time, the guitar and the amp have been picking holes in my own inabilities to play the guitar and express myself the way I want to. They are both really unforgiving, but together, when played in the right way, with controls in the right places, they sound absolutely amazing.

The immediacy that @Shahar talked about in the OP was really apparent to me. I'm not talking about latency. I'm thinking more of a limited number of controls that can be moved to limited number of positions, and beyond that, you mainly just have to get on with playing that guitar.

The Tone King Imperial Mk 2 is definitely an incredible amp. I could get most of the way to what it can do with an A/B pedal, a Tweed Fender (that probably isn't a Bassman), and a good BF Deluxe Reverb or similar. Most of the way, but the attenuator in the Imperial means I could probably get some great tones in a relatively small room. It's a really good one. And of course I'm relatively confident that any of what I've learnt over the weekend will translate pretty directly to the Axe FX III in relatively short time.

The biggest thing I learnt is that we are maybe a little too spoilt for choice in the "Fractalverse". I can still learn new tricks, or at least polish some rusty skills, by going back in time to "real" amps occasionally. To do so with one I am unfamiliar with, but incredible sounding, was an absolute eye opener.

So joking aside, thanks to Shahar, Greg and everyone else that has posted their thoughts. It was a slightly delayed reaction, but a welcome jolt!

Liam
 
I could say more about the Imperial but you said it well.

I leave mine on the lead channel, gain between 8-10, tone and mid-bite at ~5, depending on the guitar and my mood. Turn up the mid-bite… heck dime them all, and the amp is insane, and, oddly I haven't seen anyone do that in a video. So much for videos actually testing amps.

Plug in a Strat and set gain to 10, raise the tone and mid-bite to 6 and see what happens as you roll up the guitar's volume then hang on tight. Flip through the pickup selector's settings and you'll have fun. I do that occasionally at a jam I attend when I'm in a Hendrix mood.

If you have Dyna-Cabs running try the attached preset. I haven't had a chance to run with it live through my EVs so it might have too much gain or reverb, but it sounds good through my Ollo S5X headphones…
 

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I'm scared to check out cool real world amps. Best that could come of that is to think I found some awesome ones, which I can't afford. Much prefer the plan of pointing that knob on the Axe someplace I haven't before, at least recently, net cost $0.00. And so many choices, sitting right there in the box.
 
Dave Merrill said:
I'm scared to check out cool real world amps. Best that could come of that is to think I found some awesome ones, which I can't afford. Much prefer the plan of pointing that knob on the Axe someplace I haven't before, at least recently, net cost $0.00. And so many choices, sitting right there in the box.
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Dave,

That's definitely the most sensible way of doing things. In the build up to buying my first Fractal modeller, an Axe FX II XL in 2016, I was probably buying another amp every 6 months, and then parting with them slightly disappointed some time shortly after getting the next one in to try to get what I needed. The Tone King Imperial was the first physical tube amp I've bought since then. I sold off Matamp, Orange and a 65amps Whiskey immediately after getting the Axe II. That was before any of the cool model algorithms we have now, but Fractal was much better for anything I needed even back then. Maybe not quite there in ultimate tone and feel, but in practical terms, it was a load more usable, and probably sounded better out front. Since then Cliff has progressed to the point where even tone/feel differences are too subtle for me to know if they are real or not.

One of the real kicks I get out of the Axe FX "fractalverse" nowadays is dialling up some of those models, or models that closely approximate the amps I've owned over the years. I get to remember their limitations like a memory triggered by the scent of a lost childhood experience. Not as poetic as it sounds - more like "I so want to love the tone of XXX amp that everyone raves about, but it's just a tiny bit too shrill/brown/thick/thin/lacking headroom/etc." And of course all the other inadequacies that are replicated, along with the things I loved about them nearly enough.

I was in the blessed position of being able to afford the amp last week, and at the same time help a friend out. It turned out he was buying back a BF Fender that he had owned and loved before. I never would have done it but for this thread, but the idea intrigued me. If there's one thing you can take away from my post, it's that no Fractal owner actually needs to do this experiment!

@Greg Ferguson, I do indeed have Dyna-Cabs running in my Axe FX III. As soon as I have time I'll get that preset loaded up and give it a try. @Dave Merrill, I'll be really surprised if Greg's preset doesn't get close enough not to care about owning the physical amp. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a very well soundproofed and treated studio to blast physical amps in, as well as being able to afford some pretty awesome gear. If there's a lesson learned from that part of the equation, it's that bang per buck diminishes rapidly once you've already got a recent Fractal product and some ideas of what amp models, effects, and cab simulations might be in your preferred ballpark.

Liam
 
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Greg Ferguson said:
<snip>

If you have Dyna-Cabs running try the attached preset. I haven't had a chance to run with it live through my EVs so it might have too much gain or reverb, but it sounds good through my Ollo S5X headphones…
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@Greg Ferguson, Just tried it through a pair of Red Sound G66 MF.10s, and with the Imperial sitting right next to them to "hot swap" between.

Must be good headphones! The gain is about right across first 3 scenes for low, a fair way up, and cranked. Reverb all good, similar to around 1 - 1.5 on the real amp. I'm presuming from the EQ balance that you did them all to match with mid-bite a fair way up. Very top and very bottom of the physical amp stand out a bit more. One of those is the MF.10s having nothing much above 5 kHz, and I didn't check for where any high pass filters were set for the other yet. Most importantly, same character and very similar response to a P90 as the real amp. A demanding pickup, and probably not what you used to make the preset.

The physical amp has something in the playing dynamics that I could spend a long time chasing down to try to imitate. That drew me back to preferring to play the real amp rather than the model, but it's pretty subtle whatever it is. It also occurs that the subtle, almost indefinable something is also priced at the best part of $3000. Compared with a Preset that was probably put together relatively quickly (by an experienced user with a keen ear, of course), and delivered FOC for any Axe FX III owner to use, the real amp is not looking like great value for money.

All that rational stuff aside, and the fact that I could relatively easily move the amp on and get my money back, I think I'm with @Orvillain on this. Found myself checking out whether Swan Flight have a standard flight case available for the Tone King Imperial Mk II, just in case I feel like slinging it in the back of the van for a gig at some point. 7 1/2 years on, I'm still invested in the Fractal experience. However I'm still keeping the 5 or 6 amps I kept after I swallowed the right pill, and there is definitely merit in trying others occasionally.

Liam
 
LiamH said:
@Greg Ferguson, Just tried it through a pair of Red Sound G66 MF.10s, and with the Imperial sitting right next to them to "hot swap" between.

Must be good headphones! The gain is about right across first 3 scenes for low, a fair way up, and cranked. Reverb all good, similar to around 1 - 1.5 on the real amp. I'm presuming from the EQ balance that you did them all to match with mid-bite a fair way up. Very top and very bottom of the physical amp stand out a bit more. One of those is the MF.10s having nothing much above 5 kHz, and I didn't check for where any high pass filters were set for the other yet. Most importantly, same character and very similar response to a P90 as the real amp. A demanding pickup, and probably not what you used to make the preset.

The physical amp has something in the playing dynamics that I could spend a long time chasing down to try to imitate. That drew me back to preferring to play the real amp rather than the model, but it's pretty subtle whatever it is. It also occurs that the subtle, almost indefinable something is also priced at the best part of $3000. Compared with a Preset that was probably put together relatively quickly (by an experienced user with a keen ear, of course), and delivered FOC for any Axe FX III owner to use, the real amp is not looking like great value for money.

All that rational stuff aside, and the fact that I could relatively easily move the amp on and get my money back, I think I'm with @Orvillain on this. Found myself checking out whether Swan Flight have a standard flight case available for the Tone King Imperial Mk II, just in case I feel like slinging it in the back of the van for a gig at some point. 7 1/2 years on, I'm still invested in the Fractal experience. However I'm still keeping the 5 or 6 amps I kept after I swallowed the right pill, and there is definitely merit in trying others occasionally.

Liam
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Oddly, I'm doing some tweaks at this moment because I'm taking my FM3-Turbo out to play tonight.

I initially made the preset when the FM3 came out, and occasionally made adjustments but wasn't quite happy with the speaker sound. When Dyna-Cabs were released I rebuilt the cab and am very happy with it. Tone King uses a custom Eminence speaker that seems to be somewhere between a Fender and a Greenback in sound. I used the 1x12 Deluxe Verb Dyna-Cab with both Dynamic mics and then the SIC for the Greenback and thought the combination brought the sound to life.

Try switching the Amp block's "Dynamics Out Comp Type" to "Feedback" on scenes 2-4 with Out Compression ~0.75. It's something Cliff talked about.

On the real amp I run with the mid-bite at ~5 depending on whether I'm using a Strat or something with humbuckers. Tone and gain will wander too depending on the guitar.

I don't want to try to make my guitars sound the same, instead I want their characteristics to stand out, so I test against Strats with late 50s and early 60s pickups, and various humbucker-equipped guitars, and use the same preset for them all.

My Imperial is probably 10 years old now, and I had the preamp tubes replaced with NOS; The guy who works on my amps got a big supply of tubes several years ago and went through them to match them to the amp. The difference was subtle but still something I could pick out, and I'd characterize it as "singing" better. I take it to blues jams and I leave it up as part of the backline. Most people look at it suspiciously because it's "obviously no good" because it's not a Fender Deluxe, but there are a few who I told to use it and they went nuts and now go for it when called up to play. I also have a Falcon that I take when it's a small room. I drop a Sennheiser e609 in front of the speaker because it's only (a loud) 12 watts and the guys go for it too. The older guys don't trust modelers and things with blinking lights and switches everywhere so the amps help them feel comfortable and in control. One in particular acts like it's going to bite him but he loves the Ford scene in the Factory ODS-100 preset which works wonderfully for humbuckers.

I love digital and my Fractals. They sound great and would be my choice 100% of the time if I was playing mid-to-big stages/rooms, but sometimes the setup time, or available space, make the traditional combo more expedient. Tonight is a decent size room with a decent size stage and the FOH guy is familiar with my sound and gear, so I use it for testing stuff.
 
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Greg Ferguson said:
On the real amp I run with the mid-bite at ~5 depending on whether I'm using a Strat or something with humbuckers. Tone and gain will wander too depending on the guitar.

I don't want to try to make my guitars sound the same, instead I want their characteristics stand out
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I think that the TK Imperial mk2 is particularly good at that. It's on my short list of favorite "real" amps and the thing I always try to use to demo a guitar....partially because I'm lucky and most of the guitar shops near me usually have one.

IDK if it's because the amp was voiced with the attenuator in mind or what, but it is a really cool amp. I hope they start getting Royalists at some point too....it'd be a fun experience.
 
marsonic said:
I think that the TK Imperial mk2 is particularly good at that. It's on my short list of favorite "real" amps and the thing I always try to use to demo a guitar....partially because I'm lucky and most of the guitar shops near me usually have one.

IDK if it's because the amp was voiced with the attenuator in mind or what, but it is a really cool amp. I hope they start getting Royalists at some point too....it'd be a fun experience.
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Stop talking about it or I'm going to be forced to get one. :tearsofjoy:
 
marsonic said:
I think that the TK Imperial mk2 is particularly good at that. It's on my short list of favorite "real" amps and the thing I always try to use to demo a guitar....partially because I'm lucky and most of the guitar shops near me usually have one.
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I'm really impressed, but had another play around comparing to the @Greg Ferguson preset the evening. Never got as far as looking for the "Dynamic Out Comp Type" settings, but will try to remember to do so. Whether it's the Axe FX Preset or the real amp, I just cannot get enough of playing with the amp cranked and sculpting tones with the tone and volume controls on my LP Junior. Both model and real amp are capable of anything between sweetness and obscenity. However, I then thought I'd listen to what Greg had loaded as delay, drive and compressor blocks. The TK Imperial definitely can't do THAT. Really nice, ears are ringing a bit now. :D
marsonic said:
IDK if it's because the amp was voiced with the attenuator in mind or what, but it is a really cool amp. I hope they start getting Royalists at some point too....it'd be a fun experience.
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Oh my - I hadn't really looked into the Royalist. One of the reasons I hadn't got into the boutique Fender derived amps earlier is that I've mainly used Marshalls for about 35 years now. Mostly 70s JMP, but a couple of Bluesbreaker reissue combos. I found the review video below, and the look on Danish Pete's face when he's setting the Royalist up tells me a lot. I know it won't do anything that I can't do with the Axe FX III. (I only really use models derived from similar Marshall amps with my band). If I'd had one of them in 2015, I think I'd probably be using it now, still with my old TheGigRig Midi 14 and a bunch of stomp boxes. The only thing I was really missing with my Marshall rig was the ability to switch to a loud clean channel with decent tone. In fairness, I would have struggled to afford the amp and 2x12 cab that I would have wanted (north of $4k here in the UK), so it's lucky Fractal turned up to save me from myself!



I'm going to work really hard in showing restraint. Like @Shahar, you did a bad thing to me @marsonic! What the eyes don't see, (or ears don't hear in this case), the heart don't grieve. Joking aside, if the Royalist does for classic Marshall what the Imperial does for classic Fender, it really must be one hell of an amp.

Liam
 
LiamH said:
you did a bad thing to me @marsonic!
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Well....that certainly wasn't my intention.

The TKs are awesome amps, but I still prefer the fractal. Granted, I haven't lived with one, only played them in stores....and my needs very well may be different from yours. But...I don't really feel like I'm missing out only having fractal gear (and a few remaining pedals I might get around to selling).

I'm also kind of a minimalist, at least when it comes to some things. But, I feel like I'm way more likely to buy a big, beefy cab and a SS power amp than a guitar amp any time soon. Sadly, I can't really find a cab I want to try out locally. They're pretty much all loaded with speakers I'm not particularly interested in.
 
marsonic said:
Well....that certainly wasn't my intention.
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I'm kidding @marsonic. The TK Royalist definitely seems an awesome amp, and I wouldn't have looked it up but for your mention, but from many years of Marshall ownership, and quite a few years of Fractal ownership, I definitely don't really need one. I have the same issue with speakers as you, and don't really love the late 70's G12-75Ts in the only Marshall 4x12 I've retained all that much.

TK Imperial is a very cool amp, but Greg's preset got me 99.5% of the way there with my Axe FX III in 3 scenes. And there are a couple more that do things the TK amp cannot. There are also the effects. While I love playing with actual physical amps, it's kind of a "no brainer", but good to spend time with the real deal when one can.

Liam
 
Greg Ferguson said:
LUCKY!!!

I'm guessing you liked its sound. :)
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Just pulled into the driveway. Going on faith, and the Chuck Levin interview with Mr. Bartel with him talking about and demoing the “65th anniversary” collection of these amps.

(For anyone confused, it’s Chuck Levin Music’s 65th anniversary, and this is a special collection by Bartel. I mean: it goes to [literally printed] “E-LEVIN”… get it?)

I’m so easy to please to begin with. But these amps/cabs/combos seem like they’re dipped in special sauce anyway. So, I’m looking forward to messing with it! 😀 Bartel seems like a really cool guy reaching for new territory with old school vibes.
 
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