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philosophy time

warrenlu

Member
disclaimer: I feel like this might not be somewhere good to REALLY get into this, because I don't think there'll be too many feathers to ruffle or oppositional points. but even if that's the case, this can turn into a gang up and talk shit thread, which is totally fine too

anyway though, the whole "modelers sound like shit and are the penultimate evil of the universe" thing

i think it is a thing for this reason (other than baseless shallow stubbornness/purely aesthetic purposes, which aren't even worth talking about):

let's say that there actually IS a noticable difference in sound. and tbh, personally, in the vein of not outright dismissing opposition, in ultimate fairness: I think there could be some merit to that. I definitely I think a lot of it is bias, kind of a placebo effect, but either way I'm gonna give due credit and not assume people on the other side of the fence are completely full of shit. plus, the fact that I think the axeIII sounds SO good. and then lastly, the point of my prefers-real-amps-but-is-open-minded-and-100%-non-judgemental friend, when showing him a dissection (black metal-influenced sound, aka minimalist af, aaka intentionally somewhat shitty) preset from the axechange: "this sounds great, but like...too great". so yeah, it's probably a fair point

BUT

here's my point: if using that as the basis, that they do actually sound different, why is the other thing (modelers) automatically bad? (bad instead of just different)

((insecurity and stubbornness))

but legitimately, I think it's because up until the point of modelers, the sound of real amps was all there was (in terms of amps). insecure and stubborn people immediately associate what always has been with being the only thing that should be; hearing or seeing someone play a piece of music on a modeler that's set up to be the exact same as the "real" version, as close as it can possibly get, to where 99% of people can't ACTUALLY hear a difference, is complete & total blasphemy.

but, WHAT IF

instead of outright dismissing, we decided to separate the two; judge and analyze each sound for what it is, intentionally avoiding any comparison to the other. it's no longer about the medium being used to produce the sound, it's only about the sound itself. do that, and then answer the question "what is wrong with modelers/digitally produced sounds/this sound?"

hook them up to a shock collar that gives them a jolt ever time they think or say an answer which either consciously or unconsciously flashes back to the real amp, thinking of it before or at all during the forming of the answer, and I would be willing to bet most of my earthly possessions that they would not have much of anything to say

because

opinions are POINTLESS

EVERYTHING IS POINTLESS

OPTIMISTIC NIHILISM

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 

Wolfliver

Member
"hook them up to a shock collar that gives them a jolt ever time they think or say an answer which either consciously or unconsciously flashes back to the real amp, thinking of it before or at all during the forming of the answer, and I would be willing to bet most of my earthly possessions that they would not have much of anything to say"

For what it's worth, I like your style in philosophy.
 

Dr. Dipwad

Experienced
Re: "Instead of outright dismissing, we decided to separate the two; judge and analyze each sound for what it is, intentionally avoiding any comparison to the other."

Perfectly reasonable! ...but, keep in mind it's both "sound" and "feel." Those are two different things.

To get even more detailed: "Sound" includes both sound to the audience and sound to the player on stage; and, the latter includes the feel of moving air for the subset of players who crank it up that much.

Setting aside the moving air, the impact of "feel" and the "sound to the player on stage" are going to intersect with that player's prior experience. A player who switches from cranked tube amps on stage is required, to some degree, to compare a modeler with what he's used to, because "what he's used to" may make it easier to produce a quality performance.

So all that's worth discussing.

You can even discuss it philosophically: "The proper telos of a modeler is musicmaking, the telos of which is found in the Three Transcendentals of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness. It is not necessarily the telos of a modeler to perfectly emulate a tube amp save when doing so is instrumental to the further end of musicmaking." ;)

As for the last four lines of your post...well! :p Poor old neurotic Nietzsche aside, that freshman-level stuff ain't philosophy! ...but I guess you knew that. After all, one doesn't end a serious philosophical treatise with "MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."

(At least, I don't think one does. I've never heard anyone say, "To quote Plato's Republic, 'MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA'"; or, "As St. Thomas Aquinas noted in the Summa Theologiae, Secunda Secundae, 'MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA' ....!")
 

sprint

Fractal Fanatic
instead of outright dismissing, we decided to separate the two
Hard to separate the two since the model is a representation the thing it models.

why is the other thing (modelers) automatically bad?
i don't think it's automatically bad - lot's like the real thing and the modelled thing - the loud voices that say "tube amps are good therefore modelling is bad" (and vise versa) don't speak for everyone, and, there may be more non-loud-talkers than you'd expect.
 

Wolfliver

Member
The AF3 absolutely excels at replicating a real world amp, I think we can agree on that.

That it does way more (FAS Models, effects, routing, ADC, DAC, ...) is also way out of the question.

I think the entire discussion "does it sound like the real amp" is a result of the AF3 being so exceptionally good at it. No one ever accused the red bean of sounding very well indeed and I would be really surprised if it ever sparked a discussion like the one you see here.

So in essence: the best compliment one can make to a modeler is it creating a ferocious discussion about its accuracy.

That, in the end, it is a tool for making something is an entirely different thing. Personally I not only use it for simulating a guitar amplifier plus effects, but as an interface, voice modulator, drum bus effector, etc.
The list goes on and on.
 

warrenlu

Member
"hook them up to a shock collar that gives them a jolt ever time they think or say an answer which either consciously or unconsciously flashes back to the real amp, thinking of it before or at all during the forming of the answer, and I would be willing to bet most of my earthly possessions that they would not have much of anything to say"

For what it's worth, I like your style in philosophy.t
"hook them up to a shock collar that gives them a jolt ever time they think or say an answer which either consciously or unconsciously flashes back to the real amp, thinking of it before or at all during the forming of the answer, and I would be willing to bet most of my earthly possessions that they would not have much of anything to say"

For what it's worth, I like your style in philosophy.

tfw breaking down the human mind & all of its predermined fallacies through sheer excruciation
 

warrenlu

Member
Re: "Instead of outright dismissing, we decided to separate the two; judge and analyze each sound for what it is, intentionally avoiding any comparison to the other."

Perfectly reasonable! ...but, keep in mind it's both "sound" and "feel." Those are two different things.

To get even more detailed: "Sound" includes both sound to the audience and sound to the player on stage; and, the latter includes the feel of moving air for the subset of players who crank it up that much.

Setting aside the moving air, the impact of "feel" and the "sound to the player on stage" are going to intersect with that player's prior experience. A player who switches from cranked tube amps on stage is required, to some degree, to compare a modeler with what he's used to, because "what he's used to" may make it easier to produce a quality performance.

So all that's worth discussing.

You can even discuss it philosophically: "The proper telos of a modeler is musicmaking, the telos of which is found in the Three Transcendentals of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness. It is not necessarily the telos of a modeler to perfectly emulate a tube amp save when doing so is instrumental to the further end of musicmaking." ;)

As for the last four lines of your post...well! :p Poor old neurotic Nietzsche aside, that freshman-level stuff ain't philosophy! ...but I guess you knew that. After all, one doesn't end a serious philosophical treatise with "MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."

(At least, I don't think one does. I've never heard anyone say, "To quote Plato's Republic, 'MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA'"; or, "As St. Thomas Aquinas noted in the Summa Theologiae, Secunda Secundae, 'MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA' ....!")

I don't know how to do the legit replying to individual parts thing, so this is my ghetto rigged version of it:

"To get even more detailed: "Sound" includes both sound to the audience and sound to the player on stage; and, the latter includes the feel of moving air for the subset of players who crank it up that much.

Setting aside the moving air, the impact of "feel" and the "sound to the player on stage" are going to intersect with that player's prior experience. A player who switches from cranked tube amps on stage is required, to some degree, to compare a modeler with what he's used to, because "what he's used to" may make it easier to produce a quality performance."

to this: honestly 100% yes. I HAVE actually thought about this before (I promise), I just forgot to add it in because my brain was lightspeed bore-ing into the sound direction. BUT, with the stubbornness and aesthetic stuff: while I do think they're mostly separate entities from sound itself,
I 1000% think they are an EXTREMELY important element of MUSIC (the artistic/personality side of it). especially with rock and rock-born music itself, attitude (flipping off le modelers) is such a critical thing. kinda vain and shallow as well, but hey: we are musicians. lol

I would also even go so far as to say that confidence in that attitude, or conviction in your belief, is naturally going to have a positive effect on your music; it's going to be flush with all of that passion, and imo THAT (while even more
subjective than "sound", I think) is the most critical and important aspect of this whole thing. it's all about the art. so in that sense, I would 10000% respect someone if they were willing to admit that the only reason that they talk shit on modelers in fb groups is because it makes them look and feel like a BADASS REBEL, staunch traditionalist who moves for NO MAN. (whereas I am an attempted anime protagonist. lol)

lastly, the live and onstage thing: I've honestly never thought of that before, but also 10000% valid I think. the crank and SHHHHWAAANNNNNNHHHHH; not so much a thing with modelers, or so I would infer.

(I say infer because I have (here it comes): never owned a tube amp, or played on/with one for more than 6 minutes total in my entire life.

nor have I ever gigged. or really plan to. lolol

aka I am a scrub. aaka no shit I'm gonna have an opinion like mine, totally naive of amp-dom)


and then, this: "Poor old neurotic Nietzsche aside, that freshman-level stuff ain't philosophy! ...but I guess you knew that. After all, one doesn't end a serious philosophical treatise with "MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.""

yeahhhhhhhh, I get that a lot lol. I have never read him or any philosophy in general, but from what I can gather he seems to have thought of everything I have. and since he already wrote it out, and I played too many video games as a child and can't hold onto or control a concise/organized thought for the life of me, I thus opt for musician-dom.

also, anime protagonist writer = BORING

anime protagonist guitarist = COOL

ALSO THOUGH, in seriousness:

I do actually think the almost-penultimate nothingness is the truth of the universe. like, I think in ultimate logical honesty the only thing that we as sentients can confirm are things are our own thoughts and feelings (and even that is technically a no, how do we know what real ACTUALLY is?)

but anyway, going off the assumption that they are valid in some legit form, everything else is just a perception. they might be real, physical objects (my phone), but what if we're just in a higher-being's version of the sims? what if we live in VR pods (or the matrix) that are so perfectly designed that they successfully dupe us? technically and ultimately, we do not KNOW. we just THINK and BELIEVE (based off X reasons/evidence, but also how do we know those things are real), and just importantly: we WANT.

we want this all to be real, because it creates a feeling of assuredness and comfort. confidence, and control. certainly that's better than knowing nothing, ot at least I think that's the case.

so for me, I choose to believe. or live off the assumption that this is real, that the evidence is real, etc. but at the end of the day, there's always a level of skepticism and wondering. at this point, I see most stuff as murky grey water and 100000% instinctive/impulsive animal-tier biasedness; a desire for POWER and CONTROL within the hopefulnees. and THAT, imo, is where creativity comes in and is the key: less finger pointing, less tension, less dismissal and arguing, less vulnerability, and more good feels; "this sound/image/thought I created is nice enough to where I do not give a shit if anything else is real or not, right or wrong, etc".
 

warrenlu

Member
TL;DR

(not a request, just a statement)

people who make it a point to comment these kinds of things on posts instead of just saying it in their head and moving on do so because they have metaphorical-and-or-literal microweiners and if they had to go a day without being able to snarkily project their discontent onto strangers in online forums they would kill themselves
 

Sleestak

Power User
Value and "best" are up to the person making the judgment. I have a buddy who has purchased (and sold) about 50 vintage tube screamers in search of THE ONE. He currently has four on his pedalboard, and yes, they do all sound different. Those four pedals are valuable. My friend could sell them and buy an FM3. So, which is the best? The one that inspires you to play.

My FAS products inspire me to play, and I find them best for my needs. I don't purport to have the answer for anyone else*.

* Unless the question is "after the gig, should I go out for dodgy late-night London kebab with @ZenRigs Man and his band mates?". In which case, the answer is OF COURSE YOU SHOULD.
 
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