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Not a Bug Phase problem with imported OH cabs

Holyoli

Experienced
I don’t know if it’s strictly an Axe Edit problem so mods feel free to move the post…

When I’m importing OH cabs (#) with Axe Manage cabs (Ir or Syx files), or listen them in a scratchpad location, they sound fine but if you try to mix them with other “non OH” cabs (stock e.g) there is a phase problem. I’ve tried importing them with no processing, min phase or auto trim, the problem is always there. I have to compensate by ear with the smoothing to have the mix sound more or less right.
If I import my own mixes of OH cabs that I did with Cab Lab (default processing so min phase I think), there is no phase problem with other stock cabs but well with the imported OH (#) ones.

FYI, firmwares are uptodate.

Thank you to have a look
 
I don’t know if it’s strictly an Axe Edit problem so mods feel free to move the post…

When I’m importing OH cabs (#) with Axe Manage cabs (Ir or Syx files), or listen them in a scratchpad location, they sound fine but if you try to mix them with other “non OH” cabs (stock e.g) there is a phase problem. I’ve tried importing them with no processing, min phase or auto trim, the problem is always there. I have to compensate by ear with the smoothing to have the mix sound more or less right.
If I import my own mixes of OH cabs that I did with Cab Lab (default processing so min phase I think), there is no phase problem with other stock cabs but well with the imported OH (#) ones.

FYI, firmwares are uptodate.

Thank you to have a look
I've had this same issue. Curious to know if I'm doing something wrong
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Can you give me a specific cab IR name? I will test this later but I don't understand what OH (#) means.
 

Holyoli

Experienced
Sorry for the confusion, I used (#) to make a difference with the cabs that have been processed with cab lab. So if I take any cab from a OH folder and import it via axe manage there is a phase problem when mixed with others.
 

Holyoli

Experienced
Did you use CabLab to convert the IRs? If so, I think you need to use the Min Phase (MPT?) option...
Ok I think I got it (thank you unix-guy !): when I'm converting wav files ( from a OH Fractal folder) to ir's with Cab Lab 3, I don't tick the minimum phase button. I did it this way because the manual says the min phase processing is by default (and it is indeed ticked in the tools menu - default processing mode). So maybe converting is different than processing but for me it's not clear.
I tried to convert waves files with the min phase ticked and now it works when mixed with other stock cabs...
I'd like to know if it's normal to have the problem with cabs imported with axe-manage cabs, with any setting in the cab import preferences menu (none / min phase / auto trim) ?
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Ok I think I got it (thank you unix-guy !): when I'm converting wav files ( from a OH Fractal folder) to ir's with Cab Lab 3, I don't tick the minimum phase button. I did it this way because the manual says the min phase processing is by default (and it is indeed ticked in the tools menu - default processing mode). So maybe converting is different than processing but for me it's not clear.
I tried to convert waves files with the min phase ticked and now it works when mixed with other stock cabs...
I'd like to know if it's normal to have the problem with cabs imported with axe-manage cabs, with any setting in the cab import preferences menu (none / min phase / auto trim) ?
When you use Cab-Lab it creates a .syx file that is a *processed* IR. Axe-Manage then simply imports that file.

The factory cabs are minimum phase for precisely the reason that mixing non-minimum phase leads to phase problems. Some people believe non-minimum phase sounds "better". I personally don't hear a significant difference (if any in many cases) to warrant all the inherent problems associated with non-minimum phase IRs.

Furthermore guitar speakers are essentially minimum phase devices.
 

Holyoli

Experienced
Thank you Cliff for your answer

"When you use Cab-Lab it creates a .syx file that is a *processed* IR. Axe-Manage then simply imports that file."
Ok, but then I don't understand the cabinet import IR processing choice in the Axe Edit preference menu. Shoudn't the "min phase" process the imported cab/file to make it mpt, and having no phase problems with the stock cabs ?

I don't hear a difference neither between non mpt and mpt cabs.
Now if I want to use OH cabs mixed with stock cabs I suppose I have no other solution than to convert them again with the min phase processing enabled (gee, I have around 28.000 ir files :fearscream:) but, if I mix these OH min phase converted files altogether with cab lab in default mode, is there an alteration of the mixed file (which is min phase transformed 2 times) ?
 

ownhammer

Power User
Vendor
You are correct, as per OH documentation (the included PDF for Player Packs from the Fractal site, or the Fractal Formats TXT file for .wav libraries from the OwnHammer site), .IR and .WAV files (from the Fractal.zip) from OwnHammer are non-minimum phase transformed, as Cab Lab provides the added opportunity for people who can hear/feel the difference to choose whether they want this processing or not.

If you are using .wav files from the OwnHammer site and wish to drag and drop and not use Cab Lab to convert them, please download and use files from the Line6.zip, as per the tutorials documentation (ownhammer.com/tutorials/fractal). As mentioned in the Player Pack PDF, the .syx files in those libraries are already minimum phase transformed.

Hope that helps! :)
 

androtaz

Inspired
Hi guys, I am having a similar issue with Axe Fx 3 with imported Ownhammer IRs. Mixing different IRs from the Friedman package on the Cab block I have phase issues and a huge volume drop. If needed I can provide sound samples. The issue is worse when mixing an OH IR with other vendors'.

For the Friedman package I went with the 412_FMAN_6-Pack_Fractal.zip package. Reading this post, should I go with the Line6 package instead?
What about the revolution bundle? That one does not seem to have device specific folders.

OH are my fav. IRs and I hope that this would be resolved.
 

Holyoli

Experienced
Did you have a look at the cab block in Axe edit, in the align part ? When you use non min phase OH ir's, as you will see in the align graphic part, they are "too far" from the beginning, so you can't align them with non OH ir's. If you use the IR's from the OH line6 folder, they are min phase transformed and it will work, they will "start" on the left in the graphic window. If you still have a little phase problem with other ir's, you can adjust them with the distance button. Hope that helps.
 

Holyoli

Experienced
Here is what you have when mixing a (standard) Non Min phase OH IR wth a factory one, even when moving the factory cab at the max distance (340 mmm ) it's not enough to align them properly20200613_150744.jpg
 

androtaz

Inspired
Oh I just saw the posts, thanks a lot Holyoli. I will check the Line6 packs when applicable.
I also have the evolution IRs, and they dont have a line6 folder. So I need to use the align menu for those. Interesting, I wasn't aware of the align function before.
 

Dave Merrill

Experienced
Oh I just saw the posts, thanks a lot Holyoli. I will check the Line6 packs when applicable.
I also have the evolution IRs, and they dont have a line6 folder. So I need to use the align menu for those. Interesting, I wasn't aware of the align function before.
The Revolution product page says they're "minimum please transformed", and the factory cabs are too. So as I understand it, you shouldn't need to align anything unless you're mixing them with other non-MPT IRs. In that case, I'd move the non-MPT ones, basically standardize on MPT.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Here is what you have when mixing a (standard) Non Min phase OH IR wth a factory one, even when moving the factory cab at the max distance (340 mmm ) it's not enough to align them properlyView attachment 68767
The OH IR has way too much leading silence. Contact the vendor and ask them to trim the leading silence or open the file in a DAW or .wav editor and trim the leading silence.

There's no reason for an IR to have that much leading silence. All it does is add unnecessary latency.
 
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