PA Wedge/Monitor vs FRFR Wedge/Monitor

Morbid

Morbid

Inspired
Just a quick question for you guys. How many of you use a normal PA Wedge/Monitor during live shows instead of FRFR?

I did a few gigs recently where I was having a hard time hearing myself (I play guitar and bass in a band, which instrument depends on the song). I started thinking maybe I should start bringing my own wedge.
I already have a Matrix GT1000FX in my rack for when I'm at home using my 4x12, so a powered wedge would offer me little benefit in that regard I think.

But I found myself curious, should I go the extra mile to get an FRFR Wedge, or just get a standard monitor and save some cash.
 
I have one monitor for the band, and one monitor for guitar. The guitar one is an RCF that costs more than double the band one... I guess that reveals my priorities. The guitar monitor is an FRFR coaxial variant, and the band one is a standard horn above the speaker type.

The best thing I can add is this: I can, and have, played with just one. It never sounds as good to me as having the guitar in its own monitor, coming from a different physical location.
 
i don't think there is a drastic difference between actual Full-Range Flat Response versus simply Full-Range speakers (what you are calling "PA Wedge".) some people think there is a huge difference. you might just have to find out for yourself.

the Flat-Response thing is nice for guitar modelers, but if you build your presets on non-flat response (yet full-range) speakers, and adjust for them, it's probably what the main PA sounds like anyway.

i agree with rick that simply having the guitar with its own speaker provides the huge benefit. it's just like you would with a regular guitar amp, and having the guitar speaker in its own area, like behind you while your other monitor is in front of you, is even better. from there, the specific speaker you use is up to you and just more detail.
 
While a typical stage monitor is indeed full range, flat response in general terms, stage wedges that are intended to monitor vocals (as most are) generally boost certain frequencies that make the voice cut through the mix and easier to hear. Unfortunately, I find those boosted frequencies also make electric guitar edgy and harsh. So, in addition to the reason Rick notes above, many will spend extra money to get a wedge that is closer to being truly "full range, FLAT response". Monitors that are truly neutral/flat (or approaching that), all else being equal, are more expensive to produce. They also more accurately reflect what the AxeFX sounds like.

Terry.
 
chris said:
the Flat-Response thing is nice for guitar modelers, but if you build your presets on non-flat response (yet full-range) speakers, and adjust for them, it's probably what the main PA sounds like anyway..
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It's not normal practice for a sound tech to try and match the FOH to the monitor wedges. They're looking for a good sound in the room. Your best bet is to build your presets on as neutral a FRFR monitor as you can afford. Then, the sound tech simply has to adjust your tone to suit the room. If you build your presets using a typical mid-hyped vocal monitor the FOH sound tech has to dial out whatever you've done to make your tone sound good on that non-linear monitor AND he has to make whatever changes are necessary to adjust your tone to sound good in the room.

Terry.
 
Tone Seeker said:
It's not normal practice for a sound tech to try and match the FOH to the monitor wedges.
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of course. but if you bring a full-range speaker to the gig, it won't be matched to anything anyway. and most people won't try to adjust their speaker to the room, like a sound engineer would.

in my experience, most FOH PA systems hype the Lows and Highs. if i create my tones on a speaker that boosts the Lows and Highs (thus typically reducing my own lows and highs to compensate), my tones translate to that FOH with hyped Lows and Highs. regardless, i'd have to adjust my channel on the FOH mixer anyway, whether i made the tones on a neutral or non-neutral speaker.

i do happen to use an FRFR speaker these days for myself, and on the FOH mixer, i'm reducing lows and highs.

Tone Seeker said:
If you build your presets using a typical mid-hyped vocal monitor
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would you describe most PA speakers as "mid-hyped"? especially today, i would say Low and Highs are hyped way more than mids on the typical speaker. that's just my experience.
 
Tone Seeker said:
I was referring to stage monitors.

Terry.
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EQ'd-by-the-sound-guy-for-vocals stage monitors? or a "stage monitor" that you can purchase? if it's the first, i don't understand how that fits into this discussion of bringing your own speaker, Flat-Response vs just-full-range.
 
chris said:
EQ'd-by-the-sound-guy-for-vocals stage monitors? or a "stage monitor" that you can purchase? if it's the first, i don't understand how that fits into this discussion of bringing your own speaker, Flat-Response vs just-full-range.
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Most stage monitors are built with a a frequency response designed-in to make vocals cut through mix...
 
chris said:
EQ'd-by-the-sound-guy-for-vocals stage monitors? or a "stage monitor" that you can purchase? if it's the first, i don't understand how that fits into this discussion of bringing your own speaker, Flat-Response vs just-full-range.
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Sorry I was unclear. I was comparing two scenarios. The first is where you dial in your tones on a stage monitor with hyped upper mids meant to make a vocal cut through the mix on stage so a singer can hear themself. In sculpting your tone on this monitor you will naturally adjust your tone to negate the effect of the accentuated upper mids. For example, on the 5 band EQ in the amp model you could pull down the upper mid slider. The second scenario is where you dial in your tones on a flat monitor. On a flat monitor the tone you create will not have to compensate for the accentuated upper mids. That upper mid slider can remain at zero.

Now, you go to the gig with both patches. If the sound man were to eq FOH to match the stage monitor with the hyped upper mids your first patch would be perfect. Of course no one does this, and that was my point. In fact, they are starting from a different reference point, perhaps one with speakers that accentuate the highs and lows as you've mentioned. If that's the case the patch you made on the flat monitor would only need the highs and lows adjusted. However, the patch you made on the stage monitor with the pushed upper mids would require the highs and lows adjusted AND compensation for the upper mid cut you had to put in to compensate for the upper mid push. Three changes versus two. That's why I recommend dialling in your tones on as flat a monitor as possible. The odds of a FOH system matching the non-linearity of a poor or hyped FRFR monitor are pretty small, so building your tones on a reference quality FRFR monitor will generally speaking, provide patches that translate easiest to different FOH systems.

Terry.
 
Tone Seeker said:
Sorry I was unclear. I was comparing two scenarios. The first is where you dial in your tones on a stage monitor with hyped upper mids meant to make a vocal cut through the mix on stage so a singer can hear themself. In sculpting your tone on this monitor you will naturally adjust your tone to negate the effect of the accentuated upper mids. For example, on the 5 band EQ in the amp model you could pull down the upper mid slider. The second scenario is where you dial in your tones on a flat monitor. On a flat monitor the tone you create will not have to compensate for the accentuated upper mids. That upper mid slider can remain at zero.

Now, you go to the gig with both patches. If the sound man were to eq FOH to match the stage monitor with the hyped upper mids your first patch would be perfect. Of course no one does this, and that was my point. In fact, they are starting from a different reference point, perhaps one with speakers that accentuate the highs and lows as you've mentioned. If that's the case the patch you made on the flat monitor would only need the highs and lows adjusted. However, the patch you made on the stage monitor with the pushed upper mids would require the highs and lows adjusted AND compensation for the upper mid cut you had to put in to compensate for the upper mid push. Three changes versus two. That's why I recommend dialling in your tones on as flat a monitor as possible. The odds of a FOH system matching the non-linearity of a poor or hyped FRFR monitor are pretty small, so building your tones on a reference quality FRFR monitor will generally speaking, provide patches that translate easiest to different FOH systems.

Terry.
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thanks for that, but i think i don't understand where the "stage monitor with hyped upper mids" is coming from. are you saying that "pa speakers" all have hyped upper mids? or are you saying that the stage monitors at a venue have been EQ'd (in addition to what the speaker originally sounds like) to have hyped upper mids?

unix-guy said:
Most stage monitors are built with a a frequency response designed-in to make vocals cut through mix...
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do you know any specific speaker models that exhibit this? it's good info to know. thanks.
 
chris said:
thanks for that, but i think i don't understand where the "stage monitor with hyped upper mids" is coming from. are you saying that "pa speakers" all have hyped upper mids? or are you saying that the stage monitors at a venue have been EQ'd (in addition to what the speaker originally sounds like) to have hyped upper mids?
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The OP asked "How many of you use a normal PA Wedge/Monitor during live shows instead of FRFR?". He also says "But I found myself curious, should I go the extra mile to get an FRFR Wedge, or just get a standard monitor and save some cash.". My answer to him was that stage monitors are generally built with a frequency response that makes vocals cut through the mix on-stage, which typically means the upper mids are accentuated. This makes it tougher to dial in a nice sounding guitar tone so I recommended that he purchase his own stage monitor, one with a flatter response.

Terry.
 
Tone Seeker said:
The OP asked "How many of you use a normal PA Wedge/Monitor during live shows instead of FRFR?". He also says "But I found myself curious, should I go the extra mile to get an FRFR Wedge, or just get a standard monitor and save some cash.". My answer to him was that stage monitors are generally build with a frequency response that makes vocals cut through the mix on-stage, which typically means the upper mids are accentuated. This makes it tougher to dial in a nice sounding guitar tone so I recommended that he purchase his own stage monitor, one with a flatter response.

Terry.
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interesting, do you know of any specific models that accentuate the mids? in my experience, most of the stage monitors on the stages here are inherently low and high hyped, not upper mids.

in terms of this thread, it'd be good to know specific models to avoid, if you know any. thanks!
 
My experience is that stage monitors generally attempt to be full-range with flat response. They face some challenges in that regard: they're relatively inexpensive, so the manufacturers have to cut corners; they're flat to the floor, which distorts their frequency response; their crossovers can cause weirdness in the upper mids. But they try, and manufacturers are quick to brag about how flat their monitors are. Deviations from flatness are usually caused by one of the factors I listed above.
 
chris said:
interesting, do you know of any specific models that accentuate the mids? in my experience, most of the stage monitors on the stages here are inherently low and high hyped, not upper mids.

in terms of this thread, it'd be good to know specific models to avoid, if you know any. thanks!
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Sorry, I don't know the model without visiting the venue. However, I would still give the same advice if the venue's stage monitors hyped the lows and highs. Buy and use a stage monitor for your AxeFX that is as flat as you can afford.

Terry.
 
Tone Seeker said:
Sorry, I don't know the model without visiting the venue. However, I would still give the same advice if the venue's stage monitors hyped the lows and highs. Buy and use a stage monitor for your AxeFX that is as flat as you can afford.

Terry.
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no prob, thanks!

i still stand by my experience, where a hyped low/high speaker for yourself can translate well to a hyped low/high PA system. i have to adjust the same amount of things whether i created tones on my hyped low/high speaker vs FRFR. same amount, just different specific things *shrug* not saying i'm right or whatever, just saying that's my experience.

hopefully more people who have used both can chime in.
 
chris said:
no prob, thanks!

i still stand by my experience, where a hyped low/high speaker for yourself can translate well to a hyped low/high PA system. i have to adjust the same amount of things whether i created tones on my hyped low/high speaker vs FRFR. same amount, just different specific things *shrug* not saying i'm right or whatever, just saying that's my experience.

hopefully more people who have used both can chime in.
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I appreciate the discussion!

Terry.
 
Thanks for all the input folks. I should probably have clarified in that, I do have a Matrix FR212 that I use at home, and when crafting tones for live use, that's what I use (as opposed to my Mesa 4x12 for obvious reasons). Because the FR212 is basically a 2x12 shape though, I'd been considering getting some kind of monitor wedge for certain gigs where I'm struggling to hear my own guitar/bass. As was mentioned, just to hear ONLY THAT coming from that particular monitor. It would also put me in control of my own volume, thus not having to rely on a sound guy (or having to walk to the board on my own in many circumstances when we're running our own sound).

While a normal wedge may accentuate some frequencies, since I won't be crafting tones on it, I'm starting to think it might be worth saving some money and getting one of those...again, just to HEAR myself at all. :)

Thanks gang!
 
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