Output knob question

Shredology

Shredology

Experienced
So I played air guitar for an entire set this morning at church. I went to hit my first chord and NOTHING. The sound man said he was getting just a whisper of level from my Axe. The first set was perfect. We think the ouptut 1 knob got touched but I cannot really confirm that. I am only setting this knob at 9:00 and there seems to be a steep drop off in output say from 9:00 to 8:00 and it is hard to notice that small of a position shift from 20 feet away. The question is, should I be leveling my patches with this knob at a higher position? The problem with that is the sound guys seem to have a problem with levels above 9:00 and are constantly looking for me to turn down if the knob gets too far above that 9:00 position. Any thoughts?
 
I play in a similar situation. There are several solutions. Part of it depends on how you are monitoring your own sound. The problem you are having and what Cliff is referring to is that the Axe output is line level. There is a good chance that your sound board and/or sound guy is expecting mic level (less than line). Where I play, the board takes mic inputs, so I end up putting a DI box between the Axe the the board.

My setup looks like this:
Axe Out 1 (1/4") to input on DI box > DI box out to port on cable snake > cable snake to board
Axe Out 1 (XLR) to Atomic CLR Active Cab (this is my personal monitor)

The recommendation that I have seen on this forum is to generally have the output around noon. Using this setup, I can have the output between noon-1pm without overruning the board.

My setup works for me, but there are a couple of ways to improve it.
1) Run XLR (not 1/4") to the DI box. The 1/4" is unbalanced and is prone to pick up noise. Luckily, I dont have this issue
2) Run Axe output 2 to my Atomic CLR. That way FOH gets Out1 and I get Out 2, so the two volume levels can be set indpendent of one another. I could turn up my own monitor without affecting FOH.

Regard preset leveling, the recommendation is to do it at "gig volumes" (not bedroom volumes). This has to do with "Fletcher-Munson curves" and how the frequency response behaves differently and varying volumes.

Lots of variables. Hopefully, this is a start in the right direction.
 
Shredology said:
Yeah, I was wondering about that. I don't know much about running sound so I am kind of at their mercy right now.
Click to expand...

...and it stinks. I put hours and hours in to practice this week and more hours setting up tones. There was a *new* guy behind the board and when I listended to recordings from today, I found that I was not in the mains. A lot of the guys have no idea what the song is supposed to sound like. For some reason, they prefer the sound of some cheap acoustic guitar getting pounded to death by an ill-prepared marginally talented player over someone that knows and plays the parts and has the equipment to make it sound sweet. Beats me....
 
jamn4jc said:
I play in a similar situation. There are several solutions. Part of it depends on how you are monitoring your own sound. The problem you are having and what Cliff is referring to is that the Axe output is line level. There is a good chance that your sound board and/or sound guy is expecting mic level (less than line). Where I play, the board takes mic inputs, so I end up putting a DI box between the Axe the the board.

My setup looks like this:
Axe Out 1 (1/4") to input on DI box > DI box out to port on cable snake > cable snake to board
Axe Out 1 (XLR) to Atomic CLR Active Cab (this is my personal monitor)

The recommendation that I have seen on this forum is to generally have the output around noon. Using this setup, I can have the output between noon-1pm without overruning the board.

My setup works for me, but there are a couple of ways to improve it.
1) Run XLR (not 1/4") to the DI box. The 1/4" is unbalanced and is prone to pick up noise. Luckily, I dont have this issue
2) Run Axe output 2 to my Atomic CLR. That way FOH gets Out1 and I get Out 2, so the two volume levels can be set indpendent of one another. I could turn up my own monitor without affecting FOH.

Regard preset leveling, the recommendation is to do it at "gig volumes" (not bedroom volumes). This has to do with "Fletcher-Munson curves" and how the frequency response behaves differently and varying volumes.

Lots of variables. Hopefully, this is a start in the right direction.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I just got my CLR and my plan was to set-up like this. Output 1 left - XLR to the board. Output 2- 1/4" into a Whirlwind IMP2 box to convert to XLR then to my CLR as a stage monitor. I wanted the house return to come into the other input of the CLR. So I would have the CLR as my only monitor and by using the AXE copy output 1 to 2 function, I could control output 2 with an expression pedal to mix myself in my monitor. (hope all that makes sense). But, that did not help me today
 
Output 1 left - XLR to the board -- but, this will put you in the same situation you have now -- a line level output that is apparently going to a mic level input on the board. You need to find out what level input the board is expecting and can it handle a line level input?

Also, no need to convert to XLR for the CLR as it will take both XLR and 1/4", unless your CLR is a distance from you that the unbalanced connection becomes a problem. My assumption is that there is a minimal distance (<25feet) between the Axe and the CLR.
 
jamn4jc said:
Output 1 left - XLR to the board -- but, this will put you in the same situation you have now -- a line level output that is apparently going to a mic level input on the board. You need to find out what level input the board is expecting and can it handle a line level input?

Also, no need to convert to XLR for the CLR as it will take both XLR and 1/4", unless your CLR is a distance from you that the unbalanced connection becomes a problem. My assumption is that there is a minimal distance (<25feet) between the Axe and the CLR.
Click to expand...

It's about 30 feet for the cable to come around the back of the CLR with a decent amount of slack. We have some crappy lighting transformers that seem to pickup cable noise so my thought was to keep everything XLR. So I can convert the output 1 to FOH to a mic level signal with a box? Any particular one that is good?
 
Shredology said:
So I can convert the output 1 to FOH to a mic level signal with a box? Any particular one that is good?
Click to expand...

Yes, the output on the DI box is a balanced, mic level output.
A Direct Box can be in-DI-spensible - Support - Whirlwind

A “DI” serves several basic functions:

* It converts a high impedance signal to a low impedance signal (although it will also accept a low impedance signal from a preamp, keyboard, active pickup or other electronic device).

* It converts an unbalanced signal to balanced.

* It reduces a strong instrument or line level signal (and sometimes even speaker level signal) to a mic level signal suitable for connection to the mic input of a mixing console.

We use a fairly inexpensive passive DI box from Whirlwind... the "EDB1". It has a ground/loop switch and a pad switch (0, -20dB, -40dB) so that the output can be adjusted if needed to match the board/console.
Whirlwind EDB1 Connect Series Direct Box at zZounds
 
jamn4jc said:
Yes, the output on the DI box is a balanced, mic level output.
A Direct Box can be in-DI-spensible - Support - Whirlwind

A “DI” serves several basic functions:

* It converts a high impedance signal to a low impedance signal (although it will also accept a low impedance signal from a preamp, keyboard, active pickup or other electronic device).

* It converts an unbalanced signal to balanced.

* It reduces a strong instrument or line level signal (and sometimes even speaker level signal) to a mic level signal suitable for connection to the mic input of a mixing console.

We use a fairly inexpensive passive DI box from Whirlwind... the "EDB1". It has a ground/loop switch and a pad switch (0, -20dB, -40dB) so that the output can be adjusted if needed to match the board/console.
Whirlwind EDB1 Connect Series Direct Box at zZounds
Click to expand...

Fantastic, ordering now.
 
I don't know if they are still available, but years ago I bought some in-line XLR attenuators (-20db) for our drum mics. I don't know what's inside them, maybe just a resistor divider circuit, but whatever it was you couldn't hear it affecting the tone. Personally I try to avoid DI boxes if possible as they can color the sound.
 
At one time someone suggested a readout for the output knobs so you could precisely set them repeatedly. I thought Cliff was interested, but maybe it's never bubbled to the top of the priority list.
 
jakel said:
Personally I try to avoid DI boxes if possible as they can color the sound.
Click to expand...

That's possible, but hasn't been my experience with the Whirlwind EDB1. Before practice, I often add a looper to a preset, play a loop, turn the CLR to face the room and go to the soundboard to EQ my channel. I can get the sound coming from the FOH to be pretty close (or, close enough) to what is coming out of the CLR.
 
Shredology said:
Fantastic, ordering now.
Click to expand...

The EDB1 takes a 1/4" input. So, you can, and should, run a short 1/4" cable from the Axe output to the DI input, then from there go XLR to wherever. Using that setup, you should be able to run the output knob at the recommended 12-1 position and not kill the board. The sound guy can adjust the input trim on your channel accordingly (same as the input on the Axe -- maximum gain while barely/rarely hitting the RED).
 
So, my question is this... may be a new thread.

I currently use Output 1 for BOTH the FOH and my personal monitor (CLR). I want to use OUT1->FOH and OUT2->CLR so that I can adjust the outputs independent of one another. So, in theory, the signal levels *may* vary somewhat. What volume level, OUT1 or OUT2, should be used to tweak/EQ the presets (being mindful of the "Fletcher-Munson curve"); the FOH needs to sound good, but I need my monitor to sound accurate as well. Or, will the levels be close enough that the impact/effect will be minimal. I don't know what variance in levels produces a noticeable difference in the tone.
 
jamn4jc said:
So, my question is this... may be a new thread.

I currently use Output 1 for BOTH the FOH and my personal monitor (CLR). I want to use OUT1->FOH and OUT2->CLR so that I can adjust the outputs independent of one another. So, in theory, the signal levels *may* vary somewhat. What volume level, OUT1 or OUT2, should be used to tweak/EQ the presets (being mindful of the "Fletcher-Munson curve"); the FOH needs to sound good, but I need my monitor to sound accurate as well. Or, will the levels be close enough that the impact/effect will be minimal. I don't know what variance in levels produces a noticeable difference in the tone.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are a step ahead of me as I have not brought my CLR to the stage yet but when I do this question will come into play for me too.
 
Instead of adding things to the signal path you could just set the global EQ gain to -12 dB, optionally setting boost/pad to 12 dB to maintain level at D/A converter. That will let you set the output knob higher for a given output level. Or if -12 dB isn't enough, turn amp block in each preset down by a certain amount.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom