Output Block Meters?

In Axe Edit there are meters labeled Left and Right on the Output Block mixer page. All of these meters go well into the red when I play. However, the output meters on the front panel of my Axe3 all show that I'm not clipping. It doesn't sound to me like I'm clipping either. Also, I can't find these meters mentioned anywhere in the Owner's Manual or the Blocks Guide. I'm currently running FW 21.04. Should I be worried about these meters going into the red??
 
You're not alone, that inconsistency has confused many people. Those are vu meters, so they're off by 12 dB from what you're expecting and red does not mean clipping. If you're connected to a computer, ignore those meters and use the meters in your DAW to adjust your levels and you'll be ok.
 
You're not alone, that inconsistency has confused many people. Those are vu meters, so they're off by 12 dB from what you're expecting and red does not mean clipping. If you're connected to a computer, ignore those meters and use the meters in your DAW to adjust your levels and you'll be ok.
Wow! Thanks for the quick response! That helps a lot
 
You're not alone, that inconsistency has confused many people. Those are vu meters, so they're off by 12 dB from what you're expecting and red does not mean clipping. If you're connected to a computer, ignore those meters and use the meters in your DAW to adjust your levels and you'll be ok.
Is there any way to see the meters in dB?
 
As @GlennO said, it’s an inconsistency. But that inconsistency is driven by historical precedent. VU Meters were around more than half a century before Fractal Audio existed, and everything above zero was always red.
 
As @GlennO said, it’s an inconsistency. But that inconsistency is driven by historical precedent. VU Meters were around more than half a century before Fractal Audio existed, and everything above zero was always red.

We were discussing the inconsistency between the output block meter and the front panel meter.
 
You're not alone, that inconsistency has confused many people. Those are vu meters, so they're off by 12 dB from what you're expecting and red does not mean clipping. If you're connected to a computer, ignore those meters and use the meters in your DAW to adjust your levels and you'll be ok.
Just out of curiosity, is there any particular known reason why Fractal decided to go with a VU meter instead of a dB meter?
 
You mean the LED meters, right?

Yes. As I mentioned above, the confusion was caused by inconsistency between the two meters. They use different color schemes.

Regarding VU meters, off the top of my head, I've never seen another bar/led vu meter that uses red at zero like the output block does. That's different from a needle meter of course. Usually bar/led meters transition from green to yellow at zero. That's not to say there aren't some in existence, but it's pretty rare to see a bar/led vu meter go from green to red like the output block meter.
 
Just out of curiosity, is there any particular known reason why Fractal decided to go with a VU meter instead of a dB meter?

It's because they answer different questions.

The VU meter (inside the software, mixer pages, etc.) is a measure of average level. It will tell you that your level is "healthy" when it's "near zero", meaning that you've got a reasonable amount of headroom before the system starts clipping/distorting in an unwanted way and a signal sufficiently louder than the noise floor. They've been used for that purpose for decades and generally wind up very intuitive and easy to use with just a little bit of "this is what they're telling you" instruction. The only exception is sounds that are only transients with no real sustain (e.g., snare hits) because the meter reacts too slowly for them.

The lights on the front panel light up red when the output DAC is clipping, which means that you're distorting in an unwanted way. They're peak meters, not average meters.

While you're tweaking your settings, staying "around zero VU" is a good goal for a lot of reasons, and it shows you that as well as a reasonable "moving average" of your signal level that a lot of people are really used to looking at.

While you're performing with your guitar, you're probably not staring at the detailed interface, and you don't need to worry about the exact level or even the average level....but you would want to know if something happened that is making you clip the DAC...because it sounds bad. When you're clipping the DAC, you need to turn your output level down (digitally) as soon as it's convenient, and do another take if you're recording. That's what the "Output N Clip" lights tell you. Same if you're recoding off a digital output (because it's also clipped in a displeasing way).

The input meters basically work like the clip lights, just with a bit more detail so you can get some idea of other problems earlier in the signal path. And the guidelines (you want yellow when your guitar/pedals are loud, red blinking is okay, red "on" is not) tell you something very similar....but the input can "withstand" more clipping because, in general, clipping an ADC doesn't sound nearly as bad as clipping a DAC as long as it only happens for brief moments.

Realistically....raw digital meters don't tell you anything interesting except whether or not you're clipping. Despite being more precise, the way they present information is a lot less useful.

IMO, "ideal" would be a VU (or the more modern LU momentary and short-term, which is similar but more accurate to human hearing) meter with a digital clip light (or a digital meter that only shows the top 3-6 dB of range or so). Which is why I own a TC Clarity M and set it up to show that (plus a few more useful things since it can do them and I might as well). It's the best hardware digital level meter to come out in decades and way more convenient than filling your computer screen with plugins. And you can plug any digital source (like a Fractal) into it via AES, S/PDIF, or ADAT if you want to.

But...yeah...the meters and clip lights in the Fractal are actually really well thought-out once you realize what they're telling you.

Unfortunately, they can also be confusing.

I honestly believe the reason people get confused about these things is that the people who wrote DAW software didn't really understand music when they started. They decided to implement peak meters because they're easier to write in code. Everybody who hadn't used tape and desks got used to how they work, and a lot of the people who were used to tape and desks made horrible sounding digital audio because they didn't understand the drastic and fundamental differences between 0 VU and 0 dBFS. And we're still dealing with the fallout from that silly choice 40 years later.
 
At home, I use SPIDF out to my interface that feeds my monitors. If the meters in Edit clip I hear digital clipping in my monitors. When I say clip I mean the meters are pegged at the top of the red.
As such, I build all my presets to just hit the bottom of the red. Live I have a good clean but hot signal hitting my mixer from the XLR outs.
 
The easy solution to the meters would be to add a scale and unit to the visuals in both Edit and the onboard UI meters view so you have better understanding what they represent.

I've also suggested adding the actual value to the onboard UI so you can see it in numbers rather than mystery bar.
 
Speaking of output levels, from outputs I am only getting proper studio +4 levels with output 1 or 2. Outputs 3 and 4 are really low level even maxed. you still have to boost about 8 db past unity with the level control in the block's output level. 3 is ok. Did the build on outputs 3 and 4 get really tame op-amps or something? 3 is still usable but can't to much of a DI track even using output 4. its pretty much dead.
 
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Speaking of output levels, from outputs I am only getting proper studio +4 levels with output 1 or 2. Outputs 3 and 4 are really low level even maxed. you still have to boost about 8 db past unity with the level control in the block's output level. 3 is ok. Did the build on outputs 3 and 4 get really tame op-amps or something? 3 is still usable but can't to much of a DI track even using output 4. its pretty much dead.

From the manual, page 18:

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I was going to start a thread but I think my question aligns well with this one - I just bought a Fender FR-12 and frankly, it's the best sound I've ever gotten from my FM3 (aside from Studio Monitors). So now my config is simpler - Guitar to FM3 to FR-12. Perfect...except...

I'm wondering about the output meters in the Output Block. It seems like they are in the red pretty consistently, tho' I'm not hearing any distortion. I tried lowering the amp volume (gain, master) and can get those meters out of the red but then I have to crank the volume on my amp and on the output 1 knob.

Should I not worry about those meters in the output block? I'm not getting into the red on the output LEDs on the front of the FM3...just wondering if I'm missing something?
 
I was going to start a thread but I think my question aligns well with this one - I just bought a Fender FR-12 and frankly, it's the best sound I've ever gotten from my FM3 (aside from Studio Monitors). So now my config is simpler - Guitar to FM3 to FR-12. Perfect...except...

I'm wondering about the output meters in the Output Block. It seems like they are in the red pretty consistently, tho' I'm not hearing any distortion. I tried lowering the amp volume (gain, master) and can get those meters out of the red but then I have to crank the volume on my amp and on the output 1 knob.

Should I not worry about those meters in the output block? I'm not getting into the red on the output LEDs on the front of the FM3...just wondering if I'm missing something?
Output1 meter in the red means you are in/near the clipping zone on the output signal - not good. Get Axfx out of being anywhere near clipping range and use the physical output knob to regulate volume to monitoring devices.
 
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I'm wondering about the output meters in the Output Block. It seems like they are in the red pretty consistently, tho' I'm not hearing any distortion. I tried lowering the amp volume (gain, master) and can get those meters out of the red but then I have to crank the volume on my amp and on the output 1 knob.
If you want to get out of the red, don’t lower the Amp block’s Gain and Master— that also changes your tone. Instead, lower the Amp block’s Level.

And if you have to turn up the Output 1 knob, then turn it t up. That’s what it’s there for. :)
 
If you want to get out of the red, don’t lower the Amp block’s Gain and Master— that also changes your tone. Instead, lower the Amp block’s Level.

And if you have to turn up the Output 1 knob, then turn it t up. That’s what it’s there for. :)
I think I like the idea of turning the Output 1 knob all the way up and adjusting my presets levels from there. Then at the gig I can just turn the FR-12 volume up or down as needed.

It worked great last night at our gig, everything sounded good But I did find myself fiddling with both output 1 and the FR12 volume.
 
I think I like the idea of turning the Output 1 knob all the way up and adjusting my presets levels from there. Then at the gig I can just turn the FR-12 volume up or down as needed.

It worked great last night at our gig, everything sounded good But I did find myself fiddling with both output 1 and the FR12 volume.
Better to adjust your preset levels using the built-in meters. That gives you the best compromise between high headroom and low noise. Then use the Output knob to adjust all your presets at once to best suit the venue and downstream gear.
 
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