Output 3/4 : 20db

S

sjp_33

Member
I know the topic of level matching outputs 1/2 with Outputs 3/4 has been covered a bit here and there. But I just want clarification about my setup:
I’ve got the Axefx3 setup to run two guitars split from output 1/2 to FOH and Output 3/4 to channel A and B of a Matrix gt1000fx out into a Guitar and Bass cabinet on stage.
I know the manual states that output 3/4 are line level outputs and recommends using them with Guitar Power Amps and 4CM with traditional amps, but I noticed that the outputs are waaaaaaaay quieter even with the AxeFX and matrix amp turned all the way up…
However, I’m now aware that I can simply turn up the output blocks of 3/4 up to 20db in the layout grid, which will match the levels of outputs blocks 1/2, effectively making all 4 outputs equal level...
I guess my questions are:
1. why doesn’t the manual explicitly state that, if you use output 3/4 for a Poweramp you have to compensate by turning the output blocks up to the max 20db to match output1/2?
2. Should I actually be sending output 3/4 to FOH and 1/2 to my power amp? Is there really a difference?
3. Am I doing/looking at this all wrong?

Allow me to apologize if this has already been talked about a million times or I’m looking way too much into this.
 
To be precise, it's 18 dB that gets added to the signal in output blocks 1 and 2. AFAIK, if you account for that, the output signals at the jacks are equivalent.
 
GlennO said:
To be precise, it's 18 dB that gets added to the signal in output blocks 1 and 2. AFAIK, if you account for that, the output signals at the jacks are equivalent.
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Ahhh, that would explain why Output 3/4 are just a pinch hotter on the meters when the levels are set to 20db….
I still wonder why it’s not explicitly stated in the manual…. or better yet, implementing a level/db switch in the output settings like outputs 1/2 have for their boost/pad settings.
 
You should have outputs 3 and 4 fully clockwise when set to unity gain. They are not line level. This is what you feed into the Matrix GT1000fx, use the matrix power amp volume knobs to control the volume of the cabinets.

I would recommend disregarding the meters and leave outs 3/4 at 0db in the preset grid. Level your presets going to FOH in the Output 1 & 2 blocks. Just make sure you're not gain staging them differently going to the Matrix. You can use some output EQ to "shape" your tone going to the cabinets, but outside of that I wouldn't boost or cut the volumes.
 
RoshRoslin said:
You should have outputs 3 and 4 fully clockwise when set to unity gain. They are not line level. This is what you feed into the Matrix GT1000fx, use the matrix power amp volume knobs to control the volume of the cabinets.

I would recommend disregarding the meters and leave outs 3/4 at 0db in the preset grid. Level your presets going to FOH in the Output 1 & 2 blocks. Just make sure you're not gain staging them differently going to the Matrix. You can use some output EQ to "shape" your tone going to the cabinets, but outside of that I wouldn't boost or cut the volumes.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply, but as stated, I have the AxeFx output3/4 set to fully clockwise and into the matrix which is also turned up fully clockwise, and it’s still very quiet unless I turn up the level parameter of the Output Blocks of 3/4 up 20db.

I don’t mess with any other level in the grid besides that. Output 1/2 sound amazing and brutally loud going to FOH and when I use those to go into the Matrix instead of output 3/4.
 
sjp_33 said:
Ahhh, that would explain why Output 3/4 are just a pinch hotter on the meters when the levels are set to 20db….
I still wonder why it’s not explicitly stated in the manual…. or better yet, implementing a level/db switch in the output settings like outputs 1/2 have for their boost/pad settings.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I can't answer why it isn't documented, but it is an occasional source of confusion on the forum.

Normally, outputs 1 and/or 2 go to a power amp, not outputs 3 and 4. Outputs 3 and 4 are intended to go to outboard gear, which is why they lack the 18 dB boost. If you want to use 3 and 4 to go to a power amp, you should expect to need to do a 18 dB compensation in the grid.
 
GlennO said:
Sorry, I can't answer why it isn't documented, but it is an occasional source of confusion on the forum.

Normally, outputs 1 and/or 2 go to a power amp, not outputs 3 and 4. Outputs 3 and 4 are intended to go to outboard gear, which is why they lack the 18 dB boost. If you want to use 3 and 4 to go to a power amp, you should expect to need to do a 18 dB compensation in the grid.
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Thanks for the info!
I just assumed it was easier doing my Outputs1/2 to FOH and Output3/4 to Poweramp the way I have been because it’s more common to ask the Front of House Sound Engineers at the venue for two long XLR’s instead of two long 1/4 cables… but that’s probably all in my head. Haha
 
I'm seeing closer to a 20 dB difference between Outputs 1 & 3 here, 19.93 dB to be exact. (Turbo, FW 22.01)

Matching the levels exactly isn't too important for this (or even possible if there's a cab block on just one output) so you could also check if setting global Out 3 EQ gain to +12 dB adds enough level.
 
sjp_33 said:
Thanks for the info!
I just assumed it was easier doing my Outputs1/2 to FOH and Output3/4 to Poweramp the way I have been because it’s more common to ask the Front of House Sound Engineers at the venue for two long XLR’s instead of two long 1/4 cables… but that’s probably all in my head. Haha
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You know Out 1 and Out 2 are stereo, right? You can give FOH Out 1 L and R and feed your FRFRs or other on-stage loudmaker(s) Out 2 L and R (or vice-versa if your loudmaker(s) need(s) the 1/4" and you don't have the XLR --> TRS cables to get it hooked up), leaving 3 and 4 out of it completely and available to use with all sorts of things....
 
Global Setup | I/O | Audio has boost parameters for Output 3 and 4 with 18dB being the highest of the 4 available hardcoded boost values (which I haven't played with).

But the description in the manual states "Boost/Pad helps optimize D/A performance without affecting levels, since a boost at the converter’s input is paired with a corresponding cut at its output." which seems like it defeats the purpose of an output boost...
 
sean.e said:
Global Setup | I/O | Audio has boost parameters for Output 3 and 4 with 18dB being the highest of the 4 available hardcoded boost values (which I haven't played with).

But the description in the manual states "Boost/Pad helps optimize D/A performance without affecting levels, since a boost at the converter’s input is paired with a corresponding cut at its output." which seems like it defeats the purpose of an output boost...
Click to expand...
Yeah, the boost/pad switches for the outputs in the global setup menu are for different purposes and won’t affect the actual volume of what’s coming out of the unit…as far as I’m aware…
Bakerman said:
I'm seeing closer to a 20 dB difference between Outputs 1 & 3 here, 19.93 dB to be exact. (Turbo, FW 22.01)

Matching the levels exactly isn't too important for this (or even possible if there's a cab block on just one output) so you could also check if setting global Out 3 EQ gain to +12 dB adds enough level.
Click to expand...
I noticed that too.
But yeah, not too concerned about matching them exactly on a precise level. Though, theoretically, if it’s as simple as turning the level parameter up in the output block to match it, and just saving the preset, easy fix….

Joe Bfstplk said:
You know Out 1 and Out 2 are stereo, right? You can give FOH Out 1 L and R and feed your FRFRs or other on-stage loudmaker(s) Out 2 L and R (or vice-versa if your loudmaker(s) need(s) the 1/4" and you don't have the XLR --> TRS cables to get it hooked up), leaving 3 and 4 out of it completely and available to use with all sorts of things....
Click to expand...
Or just reroute what I’m doing:
Output1/2: PowerAmp
Output3/4: FOH
I’d rather not have to delve too deeply in panning and other adjustments within the grid if I can just reroute my outputs in the back and set it to forget it. But that’s great advice I’ll remember down the road if I end up trying different things.
 
sjp_33 said:
Thanks for the reply, but as stated, I have the AxeFx output3/4 set to fully clockwise and into the matrix which is also turned up fully clockwise, and it’s still very quiet unless I turn up the level parameter of the Output Blocks of 3/4 up 20db.

I don’t mess with any other level in the grid besides that. Output 1/2 sound amazing and brutally loud going to FOH and when I use those to go into the Matrix instead of output 3/4.
Click to expand...

I have the same setup as you and can't recreate this output level differential. If I cranked the matrix fully clockwise I would blow up speakers. What types of cables are you using to go from Output 3/4 L/R into the inputs of the Matrix?

I use a short mogami quarter inch patch cable into the quarter inch input on the back of the matrix. (Inputs A or B)
 
RoshRoslin said:
I have the same setup as you and can't recreate this output level differential. If I cranked the matrix fully clockwise I would blow up speakers. What types of cables are you using to go from Output 3/4 L/R into the inputs of the Matrix?

I use a short mogami quarter inch patch cable into the quarter inch input on the back of the matrix. (Inputs A or B)
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Short 1/4 cables. From Output3/4 of the Axe to the Matrix.
 
sjp_33 said:
Yeah, the boost/pad switches for the outputs in the global setup menu are for different purposes and won’t affect the actual volume of what’s coming out of the unit…as far as I’m aware…

I noticed that too.
But yeah, not too concerned about matching them exactly on a precise level. Though, theoretically, if it’s as simple as turning the level parameter up in the output block to match it, and just saving the preset, easy fix….


Or just reroute what I’m doing:
Output1/2: PowerAmp
Output3/4: FOH
I’d rather not have to delve too deeply in panning and other adjustments within the grid if I can just reroute my outputs in the back and set it to forget it. But that’s great advice I’ll remember down the road if I end up trying different things.
Click to expand...
You're still confused I think.

Why do you need to use 2 pairs of outputs for FOH or power amp?

Each Output is stereo as @Joe Bfstplk said.

You would typically send Output 1 L/R to FOH, not Output 1 and 2.
 
unix-guy said:
You're still confused I think.

Why do you need to use 2 pairs of outputs for FOH or power amp?

Each Output is stereo as @Joe Bfstplk said.

You would typically send Output 1 L/R to FOH, not Output 1 and 2.
Click to expand...
Maybe I am…
Or maybe my signal path is just more convoluted than it needs to be… not sure.
But this setup gives me independent volume for Bass and Guitar on all the main outputs for that go to FOH and to the power amp.
Check out the photo I attached.IMG_5513.jpeg
 
sjp_33 said:
Maybe I am…
Or maybe my signal path is just more convoluted than it needs to be… not sure.
But this setup gives me independent volume for Bass and Guitar on all the main outputs for that go to FOH and to the power amp.
Check out the photo I attached.
Click to expand...
More specifically:
Output1: Guitar>FOH
Output2: Guitar>Power amp InputA
Output3: Bass>FOH
Output4:Bass>Power amp InputB

Sorry if just being confusing at this point 😅
 
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