Opinions on Power amps And cabs please

Went to Ownhammer and purchased (great value, BTW) the Thiele EVM set of IRs and I'm impressed - sounds great through my nearfields, but I was particularly impressed when I flipped on my TS100 and Celestion cabs ... I thought for sure it would fuzz out or get real flabby, but with a couple little EQ tweaks, the speaker response is very tube-driven and deep-throated. Used one of my own presets that employs the HIPOWER1 amp sim. I'll continue experimenting with the different mic configs (I'm sure that's a very common term on the forums?). Thanks again for the tip, guys!
 
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Markom said:
Perhaps this is a question better suited for a different forum, but when using a FRFR setup approach, how does the Axe-FX's "1x12 E12L" IR Cab Sim compare to real EVM12Ls?
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IR's can only reproduce the freq behavior of a speaker. So the EVM12L IR can NOT reproduce the mechanical behavior of this speaker. And that is exactly what is missing playing FRFR. No pressure, character or balls which you will have with the real deal.

Regards
 
DADA said:
So the EVM12L IR can NOT reproduce the mechanical behavior of this speaker.
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:roll "Mechanical behavior of this speaker?" Try again, maybe you'll manage to fabricate something even sillier next time.

And that is exactly what is missing playing FRFR.
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What's apparently "missing" here is the required level of comprehension.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
:roll "Mechanical behavior of this speaker?" Try again, maybe you'll manage to fabricate something even sillier next time.

What's apparently "missing" here is the required level of comprehension.
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Hello, Jay ... Having been a contributing member of the Axe-Fx Forums since 2008, I can only imagine how much misinformation you've encountered during that time. I'm new to both the Axe-Fx and this Forum and am here to learn as much as I can before the same level of frustration sets in that has sent others packing, both away from the unit itself and probably from the Forums. While DADA's comments may seem misleading or uninformed to you as a more technically-advanced, experienced user, condescension and demeaning responses such as you posted above neither further the conversation, nor help to educate new users. With that said (and without getting too technically involved), what exactly is the shortcoming in DADA's post?
 
My time on the FAS forum includes the original one, which I joined in 2007. My response to DADA's post is due to the fact that he's talking out of his ass. He has no idea what the "mechanical behavior" of a loudspeaker is, nor of how that "mechanical behavior" might affect the sound you hear.

It's one thing to express a belief or opinion as such. Even if you are mistaken - as DADA is in this case - it is still your belief, and you are entitled to it. It is something else altogether to couch your belief in pseudo-technical terms and to pretend to have any understanding of the technical issues, as DADA constantly does.
 
Talking from my ass. :razz So thats were the brown sound was comming from.

Thanks Jay we always learn something new from you. Your a great moderator!
 
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Thank you, Jay. As I said, I'm very new to most of this, particularly the "science" behind the technology; Just want to learn more and not cause a $hit-storm in doing so.
 
Markom,

He will probably say that he already covered this on the last forum in 1997 and that the EVM is a copy from a speaker he already designed in 1965.

Jay knows his shit.
 
You will find an abundance of opinions on any Internet forum, and this one is no exception. The opinions that are backed up by actual knowledge of the subject matter are, as elsewhere, a relatively small minority.

I've not taken IRs of an EVM12L, nor is it a speaker that is of interest to me. It is certainly possible to capture the audible signature of that speaker in an IR, and it is possible as well to recreate the effect of playing through one with a suitable FRFR system. Whether you will find an IR and an FRFR system that satisfies you in that regard is an open question. Claims to the effect that doing so is impossible are mistaken.
 
DADA said:
IR's can only reproduce the freq behavior of a speaker. So the EVM12L IR can NOT reproduce the mechanical behavior of this speaker. And that is exactly what is missing playing FRFR. No pressure, character or balls which you will have with the real deal.

Regards
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That's the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. I nearly spit my coffee out when I read this post.

D
 
Hey Markom,
do you use those cabs you have pictured above for gigging or home use?
If gigging, how do you send your signal to FOH?
What speakers do you have in the boxes ( in case I missed you stating that)?
 
Jay Mitchell said:
:roll "Mechanical behavior of this speaker?" Try again, maybe you'll manage to fabricate something even sillier next time.

What's apparently "missing" here is the required level of comprehension.
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Thiele/Small - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fundamental small signal mechanical parameters

These are the physical parameters of a loudspeaker driver, as measured at small signal levels, used in the equivalent electrical circuit models. Some of these values are neither easy nor convenient to measure in a finished loudspeaker driver, so when designing speakers using existing drive units (which is almost always the case), the more easily measured parameters listed under Small Signal Parameters are more practical.

Sd - Projected area of the driver diaphragm, in square metres.
Mms - Mass of the diaphragm/coil, including acoustic load, in kilograms. Mass of the diaphragm/coil alone is known as Mmd
Cms - Compliance of the driver's suspension, in metres per newton (the reciprocal of its 'stiffness').
Rms - The mechanical resistance of a driver's suspension (ie, 'lossiness') in N·s/m
Le - Voice coil inductance measured in millihenries (mH) (Frequency dependent, usually measured at 1 kHz).
Re - DC resistance of the voice coil, measured in ohms.
Bl - The product of magnet field strength in the voice coil gap and the length of wire in the magnetic field, in tesla-metres (T·m).

Not so silly. :)
 
The cabs in the pics are used mostly at home now - occasionally, I'll do something intimate that neither requires all the horsepower shown, nor a PA/mixer, but the stereo sound sure fills a medium-sized open space. So there's no FOH for me right now. At home, I send the L/R output (1) of the Axe-Fx Ultra into a BBE Sonic Maximizer then into my TS100. The BBE unit has both 1/4" and RCA outs, so I send the RCAs-to-1/4" cables into a small mixing board that is "firewired" into my computer for recording (Sony Acid Pro). I use a Phonic 302USB between the mixer and PC; this unit doubles as my midi interface to the Axe-Fx (works great, BTW!). Very simple setup. The speakers are now Celestion G12T-75s - these replaced 4-G12M Greenbacks that were not cutting it. Not quite sure I'm ready to drop $1000 on new EVM12L Classics just yet though. There may be many shortcomings in my current setup based on others' knowledge or the Axe-Fx, and I'm open to suggested improvements (within budget, of course). Thanks for asking.
 
rUsirius said:
Not so silly. :)
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Seeing T-S parameters defined is one thing. Understanding how they affect the sound of a speaker in a given enclosure is another. Note that T-S parameters include electrical as well as mechanical properties and that acoustic properties (e.g., radiation resistance) are largely absent. T-S parameters tell you only about the low-frequency limit behavior of a transducer, most of which is irrelevant to the sound the transducer will produce with a guitar signal.
 
I know nothing about the art of designing, manufacturing and explaning speakers, or speaker/audio technology.
I can only tell my subjective experiences.

Tonewise the OwnHammer IR gets me very close to the tone of my real EVM cabinets.
Happy to use this at home through my studio monitors and QSC K12 for example. And FR works great with acoustic guitar gigs. Happy with the tones I get from FR.

Using my real EVM cabinet(s) + power amp as a backline in a live setting adds an element that I have not been able to recreate using FR: the punch of hitting notes, feeling the attack and "air" moving. Seems and feels like something physical, but I don't know / cannot explain why FR cannot reproduce this aspect of a power amp + guitar cab rig. Or maybe/probably it can, but I (and I suspect most FR users) haven't succeeded it reproducing it. Is it closed-miking, is it not using the right IRs? I don't know.

What I do know is that the difference is obvious to me, and for me (as a player of bar gigs where a backline amp is important), that it matters and that I'm happy I took this road. And that's what counts.
 
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Markom said:
The cabs in the pics are used mostly at home now - occasionally, I'll do something intimate that neither requires all the horsepower shown, nor a PA/mixer, but the stereo sound sure fills a medium-sized open space. So there's no FOH for me right now. At home, I send the L/R output (1) of the Axe-Fx Ultra into a BBE Sonic Maximizer then into my TS100. The BBE unit has both 1/4" and RCA outs, so I send the RCAs-to-1/4" cables into a small mixing board that is "firewired" into my computer for recording (Sony Acid Pro). I use a Phonic 302USB between the mixer and PC; this unit doubles as my midi interface to the Axe-Fx (works great, BTW!). Very simple setup. The speakers are now Celestion G12T-75s - these replaced 4-G12M Greenbacks that were not cutting it. Not quite sure I'm ready to drop $1000 on new EVM12L Classics just yet though. There may be many shortcomings in my current setup based on others' knowledge or the Axe-Fx, and I'm open to suggested improvements (within budget, of course). Thanks for asking.
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Thanks for the info :)
 
yek said:
I know nothing about the art of designing, manufacturing and explaning speakers, or speaker/audio technology.
I can only tell my subjective experiences.

Tonewise the OwnHammer IR gets me very close to the tone of my real EVM cabinets.
Happy to use this at home through my studio monitors and QSC K12 for example. And with acoustic guitar gigs. Happy with the tones I get from FR.

Using my real EVM cabinet(s) + power amp as a backline in a live setting adds an element that I have not been able to recreate using FR: the punch of hitting notes, feeling the attack and "air" moving. Seems and feels like something physical, but I don't know / cannot explain why FR cannot reproduce this aspect of a power amp + guitar cab rig. Or maybe/probably it can, but I (and I suspect most FR users) haven't succeeded it reproducing it. Is it closed-miking, is it not using the right IRs? I don't know.

What I do know is that the difference is obvious to me, and for me (as a player of bar gigs where a backline amp is important), that it matters and that I'm happy I took this road. And that's what counts.
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This is exactly what I ment with the mechanical behaviour of a real EVM12L compared to an EVM12L IR's via a FRFR setup. An IR is a capture of a freq charactetistics of the speaker so only the sound of the speaker, nothing more nothing less. My ass (I am standing with my back towards my backline) and my trousers tells me that every IR through a real EVM12L gives a much more realistic tube amp response.

If that is talking from my ass so be it. And that this finding potentially threatens the sale of the so called superb FRFR Frazier stuff is by no means a reason to act like a spoiled dragqueen. If you are so good than start designing a driver that does the job not only for Jazz but also for all the amps in the AFX.

Like others I have experienced the difference between FRFR and the EVM12L. It is an emperical finding. And if this finding is theoratical incorrect.... You know what.. I do nor care less. But sharing tnis information with other users is what this forum is for.
 
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