Wish New 'Scene Volume' block/model

[Admin M@]

I've never understood the logic behind showing 8 scene level faders at the same time in the output block. You can only use one at a time. Seeing the position of the other faders doesn't really help you when you're trying to match the output level. It's the meter that's the important thing to watch, not the faders.

In my work with pro rigs, it's useful if not essential to see it all at once, so you know at a glance if any scenes whose levels have been tinkered with without stepping through all of them.

 

[Moke]

Wouldn't the simpler solution be to just give the vol/pan block 8 channels and use that for scene leveling? (IMHO, in general the number of channels should match the number of scenes). I've never understood the logic behind showing 8 scene level faders at the same time in the output block. You can only use one at a time. Seeing the position of the other faders doesn't really help you when you're trying to match the output level. It's the meter that's the important thing to watch, not the faders. Anyway, it seems to me a vol/pan block with 8 channels is an alternative way to solve this problem.

That would work too. But would loose the ability to 'morph' (if that were to be included in my wish). Unless Damping were to be added to the 'Volume' parameter between channel changes??

The meter is right in the Output block. So select the scene, adjust the level while observing the meters, selecting the next scene, adjust the level while observing the meters, etc... One improvement in the current Output blocks would be that selecting a Scene fader would highlight the numbers yellow, so that you know exactly which scene you are editing, and also select that scene.

 

[Moke]

It's interesting, but aside from the fact that the units would be percentages instead of dB, how is this different from just using a volume block with a scene controller?

This is how I currently do this when I want gapless (morphing?) level changes. But end users really struggle with how to adjust the scene levels to match their guitar, band dynamics, or repurposing a song specific preset for another song.

They typically use the Output block Scene Level faders, which is much more intuitive. But large adjustments definitely mess with effect 'tails'.

Even having an 8 channel Vol/Pan block can confuse some users. They wish to raise the level of the whole preset after an update, or for whatever reason. I know that it should be done in the Amp block (where the volume change occurred). But they go to the Vol/Pan block and raise the 'Level', not realizing that they only change the 'Level' of that channel/scene.

A single channel block that can be placed anywhere in the grid, that mostly just adjusts the level of each scene might be easier to grasp for all users? Maybe a meter would be useful? Or an additional leveling tool? The current 'Preset Leveling' tool, and a new 'Scene Leveling' tool?

just thinking out loud..

 

[GlennO]

In my work with pro rigs, it's useful if not essential to see it all at once, so you know at a glance if any scenes whose levels have been tinkered with without stepping through all of them.

I can see that, but that information is useless without actually switching to that scene and listening to it.

However, the far more frequent consequence of having the 8 level faders presented simultaneously when only one is functional is: you accidentally adjust, i.e. screw up, the level for a scene you're not even listening to. I speak from experience .

 

[DJD100]

+1

 

[Moke]

I can see that, but that information is useless without actually switching to that scene and listening to it.

Hmmm. I wouldn't say useless? It's a nice overview. Anything that is suspicious is on full display. If the selected scene was highlighted somehow (yellow text?), that would minimize adjusting the wrong scene. IIRC, the Gen 2 Output blocks did this on the Scene Level faders. Right?

 

[Admin M@]

If the selected scene was highlighted somehow (yellow text?)

Isn't it? Exactly that was in my design for that screen in Axe-Edit.
Oh, I see it's not.

 

[GlennO]

Hmmm. I wouldn't say useless? It's a nice overview. Anything that is suspicious is on full display. If the selected scene was highlighted somehow (yellow text?), that would minimize adjusting the wrong scene. IIRC, the Gen 2 Output blocks did this on the Scene Level faders. Right?

I would argue presenting a block parameter which has no effect on the scene you are listening to, but does have an effect on a scene you are not listening to, is never a good idea. That would be analogous to presenting the parameters for a channel that is not used by the current scene.

But I think the user interface for the level faders is a bit tangential. I only brought this up to show that the conventional channel interface where you can only see parameters for one scene at a time would work fine to solve this problem.

The bigger point I think you're making is there should be a way to control levels for 8 scenes at a user-selectable point in the chain, not just at the output block.

 

[Moke]

I would argue presenting a block parameter which has no effect on the scene you are listening to, but does have an effect on a scene you are not listening to, is never a good idea. That would be analogous to presenting the parameters for a channel that is not used by the current scene.

But I think the user interface for the level faders is a bit tangential. I only brought this up to show that the conventional channel interface where you can only see parameters for one scene at a time would work fine to solve this problem.

The bigger point I think you're making is there should be a way to control levels for 8 scenes at a user-selectable point in the chain, not just at the output block.

I think a huge improvement in the current Output blocks, as well as my proposed wish, would be the highlighting of the currently selected scene (which from what Matt posted above, should already be the case?). And selecting any scene fader, automatically switches you to that corresponding scene so that you are indeed editing the correct scene.

 

[unix-guy]

Wouldn't the simpler solution be to just give the vol/pan block 8 channels and use that for scene leveling? (IMHO, in general the number of channels should match the number of scenes). I've never understood the logic behind showing 8 scene level faders at the same time in the output block. You can only use one at a time. Seeing the position of the other faders doesn't really help you when you're trying to match the output level. It's the meter that's the important thing to watch, not the faders. Anyway, it seems to me a vol/pan block with 8 channels is an alternative way to solve this problem.

I think that could work BUT then I think channels being changed via midi wouldn't work so for all 8 being that the CC data is modulo 4.

Not sure how that works for the 6 channel Multiplexer?

I don't control anything with midi except expression pedals these days

 

[GlennO]

I think that could work BUT then I think channels being changed via midi wouldn't work so for all 8 being that the CC data is modulo 4.

Not sure how that works for the 6 channel Multiplexer?

I don't control anything with midi except expression pedals these days

The muxer is also mod 4, which probably isn't how that should work . I think the number of channels on all blocks should match the number of scenes, but that's another matter entirely.

 

[painkiller]

Isn't it? Exactly that was in my design for that screen in Axe-Edit.
Oh, I see it's not.

That was the case in Axe-Edit II but got lost in Axe-Edit III.
It was also possible in Axe-Edit II (and also unfortunately got lost in III) that the "copy/swap scene" functions copied/swapped the scene levels in the output block.

 

[Jozsef Kiss]

+ 1

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I was doing a Zoom session this morning, and was discussing best practices for dealing with per-scene volumes. I really like how the Scenes Level sliders work that are in the Output blocks. But don't like that those faders end up placed at the very end of the signal chain. Any Reverb and Delay 'tails' are increased or decreased when changing scenes with different Scene Level fader values. The easiest way is not often the best way.

I experimented with using an unused Output 4 block (Axe-Fx III) placed after the Amp/Cab, but before any Delays and Reverbs, as a per-scene level control. It works really well, But as a (self-proclaimed) commercial preset maker, I never know if the end user will be wanting to use that Output block for some other purpose. And/or, not completely understand why in the world I have an Output 4 block in the middle of my signal chain.

So, I am officially wishing for a completely new 'Scene Volume' block, or a new 'Scene Volume' model in the Vol/Pan block (?) based on the Output block faders. It doesn't need Channels (as there is a dedicated fader for each scene already). Just a bare bones block. A 'Volume' parameter (as well as other useful Vol/Pan parameters) could still be available for attachment to an expression pedal for volume control. It's already in a good location for volume control, and swells, without cutting off any effect 'tails'.

Also, an additional 'Current Scene' master fader (similar to the Output blocks of the AX8 and Axe-Fx II) that reflects the value of the slider for the currently selected scene, that can be assigned to one of the 'Performance' pages. This single parameter will now display the current scene level value on the Performance screen and allow for effortless scene level adjustments from the front panel.

This of course applies to all three Gen 3 units.

A channel changing Vol/Pan block works nice for per-scene volumes, but there are only four channels, and 8 scenes. You can use two Vol/Pan blocks, but were are back to confusing the heck out of possible end users. And there are only two available in the FM units.

Mockup screenshot added for your amusement...
View attachment 116023

I would add the Attack and Release controls like on the Modifier pane, or at least a single Transition Time control that does both, so the changes can be smooooooove if you want that. It's amazing what slowing the transition time down from 10ms to even just 130ms does for removing the sharp edge of a transition....