Wish New 'Scene Volume' block/model

Moke

Moke

Axe-Master
Vendor
I was doing a Zoom session this morning, and was discussing best practices for dealing with per-scene volumes. I really like how the Scenes Level sliders work that are in the Output blocks. But don't like that those faders end up placed at the very end of the signal chain. Any Reverb and Delay 'tails' are increased or decreased when changing scenes with different Scene Level fader values. The easiest way is not often the best way.

I experimented with using an unused Output 4 block (Axe-Fx III) placed after the Amp/Cab, but before any Delays and Reverbs, as a per-scene level control. It works really well, But as a (self-proclaimed) commercial preset maker, I never know if the end user will be wanting to use that Output block for some other purpose. And/or, not completely understand why in the world I have an Output 4 block in the middle of my signal chain.

So, I am officially wishing for a completely new 'Scene Volume' block, or a new 'Scene Volume' model in the Vol/Pan block (?) based on the Output block faders. It doesn't need Channels (as there is a dedicated fader for each scene already). Just a bare bones block. A 'Volume' parameter (as well as other useful Vol/Pan parameters) could still be available for attachment to an expression pedal for volume control. It's already in a good location for volume control, and swells, without cutting off any effect 'tails'.

Also, an additional 'Current Scene' master fader (similar to the Output blocks of the AX8 and Axe-Fx II) that reflects the value of the slider for the currently selected scene, that can be assigned to one of the 'Performance' pages. This single parameter will now display the current scene level value on the Performance screen and allow for effortless scene level adjustments from the front panel.

This of course applies to all three Gen 3 units.

A channel changing Vol/Pan block works nice for per-scene volumes, but there are only four channels, and 8 scenes. You can use two Vol/Pan blocks, but were are back to confusing the heck out of possible end users. And there are only two available in the FM units.

Mockup screenshot added for your amusement...
Scene Level block.png
 
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+1. Volume changes happening ahead of delays/reverbs sounds much more natural than after, and allows the delay/verb tail to cover your exit nicely at the end of your epic solo.... :)
 
+1 for this idea...

You can also setup a Vol or Null Filter block with a Scene Controller to get the same effect.
 
unix-guy said:
+1 for this idea...

You can also setup a Vol or Null Filter block with a Scene Controller to get the same effect.
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Works great for sure. And lends itself to some great 'morphing' between scenes. But some end users really struggle with how to edit that when needed. I am looking for a simpler solution that is easier to grasp and edit for someone that didn't make the preset.

That 'Current Scene' fader could be added to the per-preset performance screen as part of the preset. And grant access to a level control for each scene that is also in an optimal location in the signal chain. Future Factory presets could have this added too. (if implemented of coarse)

I spend a lot of time every day answering emails about just this subject.
 
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As a mater of fact... A 'Damping' tab with 'Attack' and 'Release' parameters (like those in the 'Edit Modifier' window) associated with the 'Current Scene' fader would be really nice.

Better yet. One tab with all of the typical 'Vol/Pan' parameters. And a second 'Scene Levels' tab with the 8 scene faders, the 'Current Scene' fader, and the 'Damping' section.

I need a new Mockup.:cool:
 
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A completely new block would be cool. In fact, two instances would be cool for dual path scene level changes.

But if adding it as an additional Vol/Pan model is more feasible, Here are a couple more mockups of the two proposed tabs, as an example.
Scene Level block 2.png
Scene Level block 3.png
 
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+1. I have had the same problem using the scene levels in the Out block.

We can use the Cab block’s main Level control as a temporary work around. We only have 4 channels but at least those are already implemented and occur where I’d want to add this ability, immediately before the post-effects.

Using either proposed block, the new one or overloading VolPan, seems like it’d work but a separate dedicated block would probably be a cleaner implementation when leveling scene volumes using the leveling tool. Embedding it in the VolPan blocks or adding two “Vol” blocks would cause the UI of the leveling tool to need a way to specify which VolPan block we want to use in addition to the knob that specifies the actual level. A specific single dedicated “Vol” block for leveling would only require a knob.

I can also imagine people wanting to specify the panning parameters and attack/release for each scene too, adding further complexity.
 
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I never use the ones in the OUT blocks.
We already have SO many level controls.
IMHO, scene level controls get in the way of good preset designing and leveling.
Maybe I'm overlooking something.
 
yek said:
I never use the ones in the OUT blocks.
We already have SO many level controls.
IMHO, scene level controls get in the way of good preset designing and leveling.
Maybe I'm overlooking something.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. At first blush, the scene level controls seem like where you'd want to level your scenes out, but in reality they mess with the whole signal chain and instantly push everything (effects included) up or down and makes for unnatural sounding changes.

An implementation like Moke is describing would make it more surgical and still give a single spot to make volume adjustments. I wouldn't typically need to use it as I'm adjusting solo levels with drive/filter/amp blocks typically, but when you're working on a complex preset and have compressors involved, it's handy to have a single spot in the chain to govern your levels.
 
yek said:
I never use the ones in the OUT blocks.
We already have SO many level controls.
IMHO, scene level controls get in the way of good preset designing and leveling.
Maybe I'm overlooking something.
Click to expand...
The biggest boon, it seems, would be that reverb and delay trails wouldn't be affected by scene volume differences as they are with the controls currently in the Output block, which raises or lowers everything. As a standalone block, you could place it before and adjust scene volumes before the post-processing blocks which, while not contributing greatly (or at all) to the volume, are very noticeably affected by volume changes.

It's not a huge deal for me, since I use very little delay and reverb anyway, but I can't help to think how much more clean and cohesive scene changes would be if they didn't affect reverb/delay trails. I already said it, but this is a big +1 for me.
 
Moke said:
Works great for sure. And lends itself to some great 'morphing' between scenes. But some end users really struggle with how to edit that when needed. I am looking for a simpler solution that is easier to grasp and edit for someone that didn't make the preset.
Click to expand...
Agreed, and I knew that you would already know.

The simple approach is much more easily digestible.
 
unix-guy said:
Might as well include per-scene panning, too! :)
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Wouldn't the simpler solution be to just give the vol/pan block 8 channels and use that for scene leveling? (IMHO, in general the number of channels should match the number of scenes). I've never understood the logic behind showing 8 scene level faders at the same time in the output block. You can only use one at a time. Seeing the position of the other faders doesn't really help you when you're trying to match the output level. It's the meter that's the important thing to watch, not the faders. Anyway, it seems to me a vol/pan block with 8 channels is an alternative way to solve this problem.
 
GlennO said:
Wouldn't the simpler solution be to just give the vol/pan block 8 channels and use that for scene leveling? (IMHO, in general the number of channels should match the number of scenes). I've never understood the logic behind showing 8 scene level faders at the same time in the output block. You can only use one at a time. Seeing the position of the other faders doesn't really help you when you're trying to match the output level. It's the meter that's the important thing to watch, not the faders. Anyway, it seems to me a vol/pan block with 8 channels is an alternative way to solve this problem.
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Agree. It's the 8 scenes in this new block that do the trick, but just giving vol/pan 8 channels would do it too, and also settle the itches for power scene panning.
 
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