New DynaCab Pack! 1x12 Freed Man "Red Back"

unix-guy said:
How do you think that would work?

Impedance curve is a setting of the Amp block. DynaCab packs are in software, not on the hardware...
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Actually, I was hoping that all DCs released (CL4 or OnBoard) would have directly measured SICs provided (as mentioned above, in the case of CL4 DC packs that don't have a corresponding onboard DC (ie FreedMan112), this could be done by simply providing the curve values in the pack description so that they can be manually copied to an amp block's speaker page to use with the corresponding CL4 DC exported to an Axfx legacy slot (a preset curve in the list is great but not really needed if the raw values are provided)). It looked to me like this was going to be the case (SIC values provided for ALL DCs) given this statement, but maybe the intent was only to have it for all onboard DCs (or CL4 DC equivalents for on board DCs), not necessarily for CL4 DCs that do not have an onboard equivilent . If that's the case, it's a bit disappointing to me since I think SIC is one of the most impactful mechanisms we have, which contributes significantly to overall accuracy via actual measured SIC values provided. I've never really understood the reluctance of most 3rd pty IR makers to measure it and supply it with their IRs (effort to do I guess), but I was (and still am) hopeful that Fractal will be consistent in always having that actual measurement available with any DC purchased.
 
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sprint said:
same, but we've not seen it yet - the raw values would be fine for me since it's only entered once and save the block.
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Are the values on the Speaker page the full SIC or is there more to it then that? I always thought there was more, but to be honest I don't think too much about it ;)
 
unix-guy said:
Are the values on the Speaker page the full SIC or is there more to it then that? I always thought there was more, but to be honest I don't think too much about it ;)
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As I understand it, and have seen it working, the 6 red outlined items shown in the screenshot below are the only values that are changing when either: 1. in DC Cab mode with autoDCImp=On, the dynacab selected in cab slot1 is varied for a given static selected amp, 2. in Legacy Cab mode the selected speaker imp. curve is varied for a given static selected amp + selected legacy cab. This (the red circled ones) makes up the selected cab's SIC influence on the speaker page curve representation. The green circled (Xformer) values are the only parm values that change when the amp selection is varied for a given static cab / SIC value set (these 2 green values are the amp selection's Xformer influence on the speaker page curve representation). The remaining values defaults don't change when either the amp or DC or SIC curve selections are varied - they always default to the same values as far as I can tell or can be saved with custom values. Of these remaining values, only the %Cab Resonance knob has an additional influence on the speaker page curve representation, tho the other remaining (non red / non green) values can also change the sound.

So, for a given IR, it is that red set of 6 values measured from the actual cab the IR was shot from, representing the chosen cab's SIC influence, we want to have included in any given cab IR pack description, so that we can apply and save those specifically measured values manually as overrides on the speaker page for authenticity (or ideally, have those SIC curves represented in the dropdown list of predefined SICs available).

I know I seem obsessive about this seemly small aspect, but to those who might think it's a small thing to be fussing about, I'd suggest running a repeating riff while cycling thru various SIC curves and noting the large magnitude of difference that occurs as the red SIC values change for a given static amp and cab selection. It makes a bigger difference to my ear than many of the other aspects we generally fuss quite a bit about - hence my frequent moaning / droning about wanting to maintain consistent accurate measured SIC values.

Anyway, we have them consistently in the onboard DCs which is a great advancement - I'd like to like to see them always included in any CL4 IR pack also, but if it doesn't happen, it won't change my feeling that CL4 blows away the competition as an overall package - it'll still be 100% all Fractal IRs or 3rd party thru CL4 for me from now on in.

Also, because I know the "why not just pick the values that sound best" comment is coming: sure, but having the actual measured curves is of value for accuracy. Because of the magnitude of difference the SIC values make, it seems logical to maintain measured speaker cab SIC values for accuracy's sake just like measured amp component model representations are maintained for accuracy's sake. We say it all the time: "Cab selection makes as much or more difference than amp selection" - so why not make the cabs as accurate as possible by always having measured SIC values provided with every IR set.

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@sprint... I guess what I was trying to say is this: the Amp block has user accessible parameters and also has parameters the are not exposed. Are the exposed parameters (the ones you highlighted) the totality of what the SIC is or are there other things that are not exposed?
 
unix-guy said:
@sprint... I guess what I was trying to say is this: the Amp block has user accessible parameters and also has parameters the are not exposed. Are the exposed parameters (the ones you highlighted) the totality of what the SIC is or are there other things that are not exposed?
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I've never heard of any unexposed SIC parameters - have you? (only Fractal knows for sure), but those 2 curve section definitions (freq/Q/Reso-Gain for the lo and hi side) are, as I understand it, essentially what one would be looking to determine if trying to measure a personal cab's SIC directly (often the focus is just to figure out the lo bump, but some processes (ie REW software) can probably determine all of it but seems a bit of a challenging exercise for basement hackers like me - on my list to try tho, in order to have accurate SIC values for the few guitar cabs I own (or some day I'll swap my Matrix GT SS clean power amp for a tube based Fryette LXII and let the tubes automatically figure out the SIC with my real cabs - maybe the easiest way) - for 3rd pty cab IRs, we have no way to determine SiC accurately as end users - the only opportunities to capture it is when the actual cab is in hand, so if the IR maker does not provide a measured SIC to go with an IR pack, it's an important missing piece for accuracy imo, but not so important to having an IR that needs to sound good to one's ears and where accuracy to some reference is not a concern (same story as for measurements taken in relation to any amp/fx modelling I guess)).
 
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My sense is that besides the numeric settings you can change, there's the underlying curve itself, the choice of which is another parameter.

It's like you can start with a photograph, then adjust hue, saturation, brightness etc, but those settings won't turn one picture into a different one.

I could be completely wrong about that though. I'd be curious to know, if anyone actually knows.
 
Dave Merrill said:
My sense is that besides the numeric settings you can change, there's the underlying curve itself, the choice of which is another parameter.
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Not sure I understand this point, since when a "curve" is selected from the drop down (I guess the "other paremeter" you mention) for a given amp, the red indicated values above change to reflect the selection in the speaker page curve representation - the green (amp selection transformer influence) + red indicated values above + the %Cab rez knob are the speaker page curve representation and vise versa - the values and that graphic are one and the same unless there's something else going on under the covers as discussed above, but there's no evidence or disclosures we can point to of that, nor any additional data that seems missing from the exposed parm values.
 
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sprint said:
Not sure I understand this point, since when a curve is selected from the drop down (I guess the "other paremeter" you mention) for a given amp, the red indicated values above change to reflect the selection - the green + red indicated values above + the %Cab rez knob are the curve graphic and vise versa - the values and graphic are one and the same unless there's something else going on under the covers as discussed above, but there's no evidence
we can point to of that, nor any additional data that seems missing from the exposed parm values.
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Two questions here.
  • Are there hidden parameters that affect the tone, beyond the ones we see and can edit?
  • Is the selection of an SIC an actual parameter in and of itself, or just a human-friendly label for the combination of numeric parameters that choosing that SIC recalls?
 
Dave Merrill said:
Two questions here.
  • Are there hidden parameters that affect the tone, beyond the ones we see and can edit?
  • Is the selection of an SIC an actual parameter in and of itself, or just a human-friendly label for the combination of numeric parameters that choosing that SIC recalls?
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I think that's asking the same question in two different ways ;)

But I agree!
 
Dave Merrill said:
Are there hidden parameters that affect the tone, beyond the ones we see and can edit?
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  • there's no evidence we can see, of hidden curve related speaker page parms,
  • no mention we know of yet by Fractal of hidden parms,
  • No data that seems missing from the exposed parms that would suggest hidden parms.
That's as good an answer as we'll get I think since we don't have code access. If there is hidden parms, it's a well kept secret. I would add to this that:
- hiding such parms would seem counter intuitive / counter productive since this mechanism seems pretty clearly designed with the capability to allow users to input custom values taken from personal cab measurements.

Dave Merrill said:
Is the selection of an SIC an actual parameter in and of itself, or just a human-friendly label for the combination of numeric parameters that choosing that SIC recalls?
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yes - from what I can see, a selection from the Speaker Imp Curve drop down is a human friendly label for the red values indicated in the screenshot above.

What's really important to go along with that is that the 2 green (Xformer) indicated values in the screen shot above are not populated by a Speaker Imp Curve dropdown selection - these 2 are determined by the amp selection (hence the transformer's part in the the "magic" unique interaction between a given amp selection and a given cab selection). The speaker page curve representation is the sum of those two + the %Cabrez knob which always defaults to 100%, and the whole curve is, afaik, fed to the power amp section that considers it uniquely for a given amp.
 
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Dave Merrill said:
  • Is the selection of an SIC an actual parameter in and of itself, or just a human-friendly label for the combination of numeric parameters that choosing that SIC recalls?
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A human-friendly label that does something is a parameter. ;)
 
Rex said:
A human-friendly label that does something is a parameter. ;)
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I believe what Dave meant is that when selecting the SIC parameter, is it doing anything (behind the scenes) other than setting the previously mentioned knob values in the speaker page...
 
unix-guy said:
I believe what Dave meant is that when selecting the SIC parameter, is it doing anything (behind the scenes) other than setting the previously mentioned knob values in the speaker page...
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Dunno. That’s not clear from his question.
 
unix-guy said:
I believe what Dave meant is that when selecting the SIC parameter, is it doing anything (behind the scenes) other than setting the previously mentioned knob values in the speaker page...
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I guess it wasn't clear what I meant, I'll have another go...

POSSIBILITY 1
Choosing a SIC just presets the values of the numeric parameters. You can edit those parameters, which means the settings in effect don't correspond to the displayed SIC any more. The SIC setting itself has no effect except as a "preset" for those params.

POSSIBILITY 2
Choosing a SIC sets the underlying "mode" for this aspect of the modeling. You can edit the numeric parameters, but nothing you do will turn one SIC into another one, because the underlying operating "mode" is different. It's similar to amps and their settings. Copying the visible settings from a Deluxe to a Splawn won't make them the same, because a different amp model is in effect.

Is that clearer?

I'd love to know which of those possibilities is actually how it works. @FractalAudio?
 
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