New Approach for Cab Modeling

Joker

Inspired
I've recently read about the new Magix Vandal guitar plugin, and in my opinion it doesn't sound as good as the Axe Fx, though the idea behind Vandal is somewhat similar to Axe Fx and differs from makers like native instruments etc. What made me curious is the cab modeling they've used for the Vandal. It's not just Impulse responses, they've modelled cabinets with the physical modeling approach instead of the IR approach. You can read more about it here:

http://vandalamps.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/simulating-speakers-cabinets-part-i/#more-138

and part 2 is here:

http://vandalamps.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/simulating-speakers-cabinets-part-ii/#more-147

So tell me what you think about this approach... I'd especially like to hear the opinions of Cliff or Jay or any other person that has a real good theoretical background...
 
Joker said:
So tell me what you think about this approach...
It does not work. I work with computer modeling and prediction of sound system performance, and I have seen the equivalent claims made for one of the software packages sold to that market. The claimers are either ignorant of - or willfully choose to ignore - some of the basics.

Claiming that a physical model implemented in a computer will produce a more accurate replica of the actual device's behavior than will taking real data on the actual device is downright silly on its face. Even if the model were complete enough to account for what happens in the real world - it is not, and it will never be, in the case of acoustic wave propagation - the time required to enter the essential input data - which would have to include, as one component of many, every detail of every moving part in the speaker and all the materials used to make those parts - would be overwhelming for just one speaker/cab combo, if you could actually acquire all that information (and you cannot).

In the modeling world, the benchmark for success is how well the model predicts the behavior of the system being modeled. The way you quantify success is to measure the response of the speaker you modeled and compare it to the response predicted by the model. But the purpose of modeling in this case is to avoid the use of the measured data.

The objections raised to the use of impulse responses are woefully misinformed. A properly-acquired IR of a speaker fully accounts for all the linear effects they list, including internal reflections in the cabinet, port effects, nonideal transducer behaviors, diffraction from the cabinet edges, etc., in a way that no implementable computer model will ever duplicate.

The way to get closer to the behavior of real cabs is to improve the quality of the data you acquire on those cabs. An IR acquired by close-mic'ing will never produce the sound of the speaker as you hear it while you are playing through it. The required elements for acquisition of an authentic IR are:

1. Suitably neutral test mic. Here are some examples:
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/produc ... item=24012
http://www.acopacific.com/micdetal.html
http://www.earthworksaudio.com/25.html

These mics are quite expensive, but they add no audible coloration to the sound they receive.

2. Realistic choice of mic placement. Think of where your ears are relative to your favorite cab when you're playing. That's a good place to start. It won't be a few inches in front of the speaker cone.

3. Freedom from room reflections. We're interested in simulating a cab here, not a room. You are playing in a room. Adding some of the effects of another unfamiliar room will hurt, not help, in achieving the desired effect.

4. Adequate signal/noise ratio in the data taking process.
 
Thanks Jay for this very informative post!

So if I understand you correctly this method is basically impossible, even if you had a 100 times better dsp than the tiger sharc the axe ultra is using, because you can't collect all the necessary information to replicate the exact physical behavior of a cab? Can't we make a very good approximation of all this components and interactions going on in this cab, so that even nonlinear occurrences can be included? An analogy that comes to mind is ohm's law: We could use maxwell's equations or consider every single electron and what not to calculate the calculate the current over a given resistor, but wouldn't it be easier to use I = V/R? It's not the most accurate way, but good enough I guess. But I see that the problem may be, that there is no such simple formula for this cab thing and that the only way there is, is to measure data and measure it more accurately over the course of time.

So will it ever be possible to model speaker distortion accurately, or is it again the problem that there are too many unpredictable factors involved like amp speaker interaction etc.?

I don't know much about this whole modeling topic, that's why I'm asking all these dumb questions :) , but it sure is interesting to hear from a guy who's dealing with this sort of thing on a daily basis! Thanks Jay!
 
Joker said:
So if I understand you correctly this method is basically impossible, even if you had a 100 times better dsp than the tiger sharc the axe ultra is using, because you can't collect all the necessary information to replicate the exact physical behavior of a cab?
Correct.

Can't we make a very good approximation of all this components and interactions going on in this cab, so that even nonlinear occurrences can be included?
Not a better approximation than you can get by taking data on the actual cab.

An analogy that comes to mind is ohm's law: We could use maxwell's equations or consider every single electron and what not to calculate the calculate the current over a given resistor, but wouldn't it be easier to use I = V/R?
If that approach could possibly work with loudspeaker simulation, you could easily get what you wanted with an EQ.

So will it ever be possible to model speaker distortion accurately,
It can be done now, using an approach that is an extension of the IR model ("dynamic convolution"). It is IMO not required to capture all the things you can actually hear in the sound of a guitar speaker.
 
Jay -- Great insight! Just curious... Do you have any predictions for the future of guitar speaker cabinet & mic simulators/emulators that you're willing to share? Perhaps there's a significant next-gen technology we should keep our eyes (and ears) on? Or do you think we've reached a technology plateau, and should only expect incremental refinements?
 
Cliff implemented the non linear aspect of coil saturation with the distortion parameters. Cab block is a merge of two methods, IR & phisical modeling (or similar!).
 
Whatever the tech elements of the Vandal modeling may be, if you have the opportunity, LISTEN to it.
It sounds great - different from the Axe, but extremely usable.
 
onebaldbloke said:
Whatever the tech elements of the Vandal modeling may be, if you have the opportunity, LISTEN to it.
It sounds great - different from the Axe, but extremely usable.

I tried the demo out yesterday. Not bad at all but a bit limited for the price. I like the modeling about the same as amplitube 3.
 
i have vandal as a part of samplitude. it sounds ok to me. but i have to say the vandal demos i've heard are the only thing that sound like a real amp to me. wow, just noticed how old this thread is. any more opinions on this?
 
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