My general thoughts on Axe Edit and the Fractal Approach.

Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
can you give an example? you mean something like resetting the Bass Mid Treble to a proper default for the Double Verb amp?
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Right now, when you double-click a parameter in Edit, it resets to some generic block default, not model-specific default. BMT controls are okay in this regard, they default to "noon", which is an unwritten industry rule of thumb, but take MV for example - if you double-click it, it goes to 5, while when you load that model in a new preset it may be at 3 or 4 or wherever the "sweet spot" is, according to Cliff. It's not at all trivial or intuitive. I know I messed up a few presets this way early on, and in the end it was easier for me to start from scratch then return to "proper" values as they aren't obvious and aren't indicated anywhere. Just like on real amps, true. But then the advanced parameters come into play and changes after firmware updates, and setting them to default values may be necessary for a "simplified" use case. Now it's the create new preset press this button on front panel three times sacrifice a chicken kind of workflow. Has to be simpler. Also, on a real amp there's no such thing as a firmware update that affects sound, you might want to set it and forget it, while here a model change may make sound darker or brighter or more gainy, which may require readjustment.
 
vangrieg said:
Also, on a real amp there's no such thing as a firmware update that affects sound
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yup. we only get tube and component failure ;)

if the main concern is what to do after a Firmware update, i personally just reset the entire amp block. the rest is for FAS to consider.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
if the main concern is what to do after a Firmware update, i personally just reset the entire amp block.
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Sure, thats what i do as well, but what I'm saying is that it's not obvious how to do it and why. So if you do that native tab in Edit, and assume users never touch anything else, it's important to keep in mind that those advanced parameters do change all the time. For a simplified use, they just need to get a new set of defaults, I think. Maybe with a warning and an offer to try it or revert back to where it was, not more than that. All in Edit.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
i agree that it will be a never-ending quest to make the control set exactly how everyone wants.

will it do "harm" to have that native tab or even a user-definable tab? no. but it will lead to more requests and will some not be satisfied with those tabs? probably :)

with that said, perhaps it does make sense to have a standardized set of controls for all amps, not catering too much to any particular model. we already have certain controls present and not-preset depending on the amp, like Treble Drive, Overdrive, etc. so maybe more specifics will be added per model down the road. maybe the native tab will be added. but as it is now, i can load any amp, turn the same set of controls that i'm used to and get the tone i need quickly. someone mentioned that this is a current/future device, not one trying to exactly model every aspect of the past. if the real amp doesn't have a mid control, and yet i turn the mid control either knowing or not knowing, i think things will be ok :) chances are, i would have switched from the native tab with only a few controls, to the basic tab with the basic controls, and turned that mid knob.

if this discussion continues, please be sure not to confuse the argument of "too many knobs" or "simplify" by forgetting the difference we already have between Advanced controls and Basic controls: we already have a Basic vs Advanced layout. Basics are Bass Mid Treble, Drive, etc. all on the Basic tab. Advanced controls are everything else including Sag, Xformer match, Negative Feedback, etc. i honestly only stick to the Basic page 95% of the time. that's "native" enough for me and many others.

i think some new users can get caught up in this discussion a bit. stick to the Basic tab if you aren't sure what the Advanced parameters do. Advanced parameters are NOT necessary for good tone. they just aren't. they are optional and available if you want to customize things to your liking. previous versions of this discussion include "locking" the Advanced parameters and/or hiding them so people aren't tempted to turn them.... i know that's a bit different than a native tab or indication of what's on the original amp, but that's where this "make the controls simpler" thing started.

there was a recent adjustment to the Amp controls and how they're displayed in EDIT. it's much better now and controls are grouped more logically. but i feel bad, since i just don't use those nicely grouped controls! basic tab all the way. MAYBE the EQ page, and sometimes the Output Comp. i don't know anything about how amps work, so i don't touch the rest.

YMMV IMHO OMGWTFBBQ

good luck.
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And also don't forget that this is not just about amps. IMHO effect blocks would benefit even more from having an Originals tab than amps would.
 
Come on, lets just promote the AxeFX so hard and let Cliff make it so good that everyone with all those amps will be asking, in their forums, why it doesn't have all the controls the Axe-FX version has!
 
Jesus, these threads go haywire so easily. The OP had a thought that made sense and it turned into a semantics debate. Pfft.

Again, having all the controls for all the Amos and all the pedals uniform is actually EASIER! Learn the Fractal format with some proprietary considerations per effect/amp and smooth sailing. Each amp, effect, pedal having their own unique knob layout sounds like more of a hassle to me.

This piece of gear does so much for us already, maybe just live with the layout and watch it improve as the tech gets better over time?
 
vangrieg said:
Right now, when you double-click a parameter in Edit, it resets to some generic block default, not model-specific default. BMT controls are okay in this regard, they default to "noon", which is an unwritten industry rule of thumb, but take MV for example - if you double-click it, it goes to 5, while when you load that model in a new preset it may be at 3 or 4 or wherever the "sweet spot" is, according to Cliff. It's not at all trivial or intuitive.
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I have wondered about this as well. I found it frustrating that parameters will jump to a different value to the one that is the default value. I've gotten confused with this myself.
 
Tailstop said:
Again, having all the controls for all the Amos and all the pedals uniform is actually EASIER! Learn the Fractal format with some proprietary considerations per effect/amp and smooth sailing. Each amp, effect, pedal having their own unique knob layout sounds like more of a hassle to me.
This piece of gear does so much for us already, maybe just live with the layout and watch it improve as the tech gets better over time?
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My original impetus for writing this thread was because I had seen other devices sue a "Native" controls approach and it looked waaaaayyyy more straight forward and easy. I badly wished the Axe Fx worked or at least had the option to work in the same manner. It certainly didn't look like a hassle.

Even if it does require a lot of work for FAS to do this I think they should do it because it has the potential to make the whole unit easier to use.
 
Ant Music said:
I have wondered about this as well. I found it frustrating that parameters will jump to a different value to the one that is the default value. I've gotten confused with this myself.
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The way I understand it, Edit is pretty dumb, it works as a controller that knows nothing about underlying models. All model specific defaults are stored in Axe. So when you create a new preset and load an amp, it is loaded from the main unit, with all the values set properly. When you double click in Edit, it just treats amps as regular blocks and sets the value to some generic default.

It is also my understanding that previously Edit stored more data, but this led to sync issues and conflicts, so it was dumbed down.
 
Ant Music said:
I had seen other devices sue a "Native" controls approach and it looked waaaaayyyy more straight forward and easy.
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Which other devices do you mean? Line 6 didn't have it in their POD series, and the new Helix edit software doesn't use this approach either. I don't know about KPA but it couldn't possibly have any native tabs since it doesn't know what amps you use.
 
BIAS was one that has this approach. There are also VSTs that use the native approach. A friend was telling me about a VST compressor that does this but I don't know the name of it. I'm sure there's plenty of them that do this (it really isn't so foreign an idea).

The new line of Zoom pedals (don't roll your eyes they actually look really cool) use the native approach. The Zoom MS-70CDR models a bunch of different modulation stompboxes in a native controls manner.
 
vangrieg said:
The way I understand it, Edit is pretty dumb, it works as a controller that knows nothing about underlying models. All model specific defaults are stored in Axe. So when you create a new preset and load an amp, it is loaded from the main unit, with all the values set properly. When you double click in Edit, it just treats amps as regular blocks and sets the value to some generic default.

It is also my understanding that previously Edit stored more data, but this led to sync issues and conflicts, so it was dumbed down.
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AxeEdit is just an interface, it knows nothing of the axefx data, it just asks the axefx to do the jobs...
 
yek said:
A graphical representation of the real amp is not necessary for me.
I would like to see a simple marking on the controls that are on the amp too.
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I think that would be a nice approach ...... and possibly(?) somewhat easier to engineer rather than explode the whole current UI architecture code to add a series of specific to amp/fx authenticity tabs to the AxeFX and Axe-Edit.

I'm kinda used to the current FAS way though so, as someone who doesn't have a deep knowledge of what an amp head's components are, I've learned to not fiddle with a whole lot of things and just use the more basic parameters and it does my job admirably. I really don't miss not knowing what the real amp's knobs are. I've owned about 5 of the real amps that are modelled and for 2 of them I can't even remember what knobs/push/pulls etc. were on them now without referencing the web :)

With the AxeFX I just use my ears and store the preset when I hit a sound that works ..... so the addition of some markings to show the authentic controls would be maybe more a nice feature point to future and current owners than a necessity to me at least.

When you've put so much time and effort into modelling all the components and how they react with each other like Cliff has I'm sure that exposing them for editing is a big part of the FAS ethos ..... and the sounds you can get are testament to how well it all works. It scratches a lot of itches whether you're an amp electronics guru tweaker or someone with a simpler approach.
 
guitarzen said:
Yes, I really like the effect that those few advanced parameters have on the tone and would miss them if they weren't available. I would consider those less advanced, as I don't really touch much else except for maybe dynamic character. For my tastes I like a bright tone, similar to what you hear on isolated tracks to cut through a mix. For me reducing xfmr match to 0.78 really makes the tone brighter and clearer for my setup, gets rid of some minor "wet blanket" muffle that I perceive. Sag I adjust for juiciness or bounciness as a secondary effect type parameter, and neg feedback I would also put into that secondary effect bucket as I adjust it for mean-ness or distortion character. Out of those 3 parameters I could probably leave sag and neg feedback alone and be OK, but xfmr match seems to be more universal and necessary for me for some reason that I don't really understand.
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With so many updates lately, I got a little behind the curve and was getting a little frustrated trying to keep my presets dialed. Then your message reminded me of the Xformer Match. I hadn't used that it a while. Just a little tweak to the 0.78 range and I was right back in business. That's an advanced parameter that would serve well on the first page.Thanks for the refresher! :)
 
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