My first experience with an Ultra... disappointing :(

[Armin]

I am a big fan of the LSS as well. I am not able to get this sound out of the Ultra (in the last years) or the II now.
This may change since Cliff mentioned he is just creating a Lonestar model for the II (I don't know if he'll make it available for the Ultra as well).
Then we may be a step closer....

...but while I checked my LSS in the shop years ago - there was also a LS (none special) and I preferred the special very much - so I bought the 2x12" combo - and still love it for both clean and crunch sounds.

 

[lauke-lux]

hmmmm.....I think I get you now.....might also want to turn off any mic sims.....I just did it to test and it does remove a lot of that 'hi-fi' sound......gets you closer to a cab sound. I also normally put up some cab 'drive' to get more of that traditional cab sound. These are found in the cab block (select it and press edit, and page < or > to get these parameters.
another thing you might want to do is go into the advanced parameters in the amp block, and use a high cut at about 8K, as well as adjust the 'warmth' and 'thump'

Maybe some of the more experienced users might have some suggestions for you, but I think if you use a combination of all of the above suggestions (might want to write them all down for when you go there next) you should get a sound that resembles a traditional sound. Other than that, you might just have to use a real cab....and you will almost certainly get that sound to where you like it

That's about exactly what I came to in replicating my Deluxe Reverb's clean sound. The warmth, thump of the power amp section as well as the Air brought some relief. Also you can fatten up it all a bit with either 10-20ms delay or reverb early reflections. Here's a Jay Mitchel cab IR, downloaded somewhere on the forum that could be useful to you, as well as a patch tentative to get my DLR sound. Myself I use this with a RW cab IR, a 4x12 greenback mixIR. But tweaking a bit with the cabs should provide you with a convenient sound I think. From experience of loading patches from others I learned that all this is extremely personnal and guitar depending, so see these examples just as my personnal "custom" view, definitely not your final solution.

Finally it also is a subject of amplification : studio monitors are not quite reknown for getting that "direct amp" feeling. Also I would not recommend to drive around studio monitors in the back of your car for life performing... Personnaly I use a traynor K4 or a small Yamaha stage amplification console with two simple satellites, but I guess some professional Jazz Players could advise you much better than me.

 

[viabcroce]

I understand your feeling, but learn to make good patches with unkown monitor it's a very hard task in a few hours...
I enjoy both Masotti, Peters & Fractal. Different taste, but sounds good!

Well, for this time I'd suffice with making it sound like an amp... and gladly leave more subtle details for later
No guitar machine sounds good when it sounds like a guitar straight into a mixer board :roll

So do you believe that that unpleasant sound is just a matter of setting and tweaking?

 

[viabcroce]

That's about exactly what I came to in replicating my Deluxe Reverb's clean sound. The warmth, thump of the power amp section as well as the Air brought some relief. Also you can fatten up it all a bit with either 10-20ms delay or reverb early reflections. Here's a Jay Mitchel cab IR, downloaded somewhere on the forum that could be useful to you, as well as a patch tentative to get my DLR sound.

Merci bien lauke-lux I'll take your syx with me. And thanks for your suggestions X)

 

[viabcroce]

I am a big fan of the LSS as well. I am not able to get this sound out of the Ultra (in the last years) or the II now.
This may change since Cliff mentioned he is just creating a Lonestar model for the II (I don't know if he'll make it available for the Ultra as well).
Then we may be a step closer....

Thank you Armin. Before attempting at reproducing LSS' sound, I'd be glad to realize why that Ultra sounds like a hi-fi stereo to me... As I've said, I'm not necessarily tied to that sound... as long as I can get an amp sound.

...while I checked my LSS in the shop years ago - there was also a LS (none special) and I preferred the special very much - so I bought the 2x12" combo - and still love it for both clean and crunch sounds.

yeah, they're two really different machines... different tubes (in the pres as well, IIRC), different cones... two separate worlds I've got the 1x12, but later on I had it reworked in a head, and now I play it with the 2x12 Dragoon I mentioned in one of my first posts in this thread.

 

[Dpoirier]

...it sounded like through a home hi-fi, like no amp.
...

Hi Gianfranco, and welcome to the forum.

You have to realize that the Axe-fx does NOT (by itself) easily sound like an "amp in the room"... it is meant to emulate (with great precision) the sound of a bunch of gear (amp, effects, cab) from which the sound has been picked up by a microphone. In other words, the "hi-fi" comment is very accurate, that's what the Axe-fx is designed to do.

Having said that, some people have had a certain degree of success in their efforts to make the Axe-fx sound "like an amp" (not like a mic'ed amp). And some others have decided to use the Axe-fx *with* an amp, in order to remove that hi-fi quality. Others have just learned to appreciate the "mic'ed amp" quality, without really getting distracted by the hi-fi quality.

So I guess what I'm saying is one of three things:
- Maybe the Axe-fx is not for you? Maybe its mic'ed-amp "mission in life" is not compatible with what you are seeking?
- Maybe you'll learn to appreciate that sound, eventually?
- And somewhere in the middle of those two extremes, maybe you'll learn to tame the hi-fi quality (like some others have succeeded in doing) and you'll get your Axe-fx to sound less hi-fi and more like an "amp in the room" ... but be warned that this third option can take a long time. It would be quite an achievement if you succeeded during a brief trial period.

Do a forum search for the terms "amp in the room", you may find some useful hints. Also, be sure to search for the "blocking PEQ" tip, as this is probably a prerequisite for that amp in the room sound.

Good luck with your quest.

Daniel
P.S. I am *so* looking forward to my next trip in Italy (maybe next year, probably more likely to be in 2013).

 

[Smilzo]

it sounds like a guitar straight into a mixer board. So do you believe that that unpleasant sound is just a matter of setting and tweaking?

Yes. Neither POD or VAMP sounds like a guitar straight into a mixer board; Axefx is much closer to real amp than both of them. Tweak, tweak...
For example: try a clean amp (Jc120, tube pre, fender, FAS clean, Dr Z) with FET drive in front of it. Adjust slew rate until you got the right attack on the note. Adjust drive as needed. You will have a clean tube sound to die for, suited to jazz, pop, blues... Just drive, amp, cab (choose a 2x12). Add a bit of reverb (early reflection) to emulate the 3-space dimension given by open cab.

 

[laxu]

Thank you Armin. Before attempting at reproducing LSS' sound, I'd be glad to realize why that Ultra sounds like a hi-fi stereo to me... As I've said, I'm not necessarily tied to that sound... as long as I can get an amp sound.

The Axe-Fx sounds vastly different based on what you use with it. Thru studio monitors it sounds like an amp recorded with a mic. Thru either guitar poweramp and cab or FRFR PA type setup (PA cabs or the Atomic FR) it sounds like a non-miced amp in a room. The FRFR setup allows for more variety because you can use the poweramp and cab modeling in the Axe-Fx. I use the Atomic FR myself.

According to Cliff from Fractal Audio, the Lone Star clean channel is essentially just a Fender Twin Reverb which is already modeled on the Axe-Fx. You could probably use the advanced settings to make it simulate the EL84-based LSS or just pick any from the various and equally great clean sounds available.

 

[viabcroce]

Hi Daniel,
thanks for your welcome

I know were you're coming from. The matter I was tying to point out is that the unit did not sound at all like a mic'ed amp (which is the sound you expect from a recorded piece of music, tricks (overdubs, Eq, post-processing & the like) apart), but rather like a row guitar through a mixer.

I've read enough on this board to be fully aware of the three scenarios you've described (LOL): my story is the story of many... OTOH, I've been playing for 30+ years now, I have recorded my music and have a studio at home, so I'm somehow also aware of the issues related to sound, recordings and related matters. It's just that it has been my first time in front of an Ultra, and I did not really know what to expect. Now that I've got the first direct experience, I've to see which of your scenarios applies to me...:roll suggestions supplied by forumates will be precious, I'm sure!

OT: as for your Italian trip, feel free to PM me if you wish

 

[viabcroce]

Yes. Neither POD or VAMP sounds like a guitar straight into a mixer board; Axefx is much closer to real amp than both of them. Tweak, tweak...
For example: try a clean amp (Jc120, tube pre, fender, FAS clean, Dr Z) with FET drive in front of it. Adjust slew rate until you got the right attack on the note. Adjust drive as needed. You will have a clean tube sound to die for, suited to jazz, pop, blues... Just drive, amp, cab (choose a 2x12). Add a bit of reverb (early reflection) to emulate the 3-space dimension given by open cab.

Noted down onto my book of tricks!

 

[Smilzo]

Have a look at the manual. Check global param: I/O set to front, amp block on, cab on, global eq flat. Be sure level is not clipping, some soundboard does not detect it.

 

[viabcroce]

The Axe-Fx sounds vastly different based on what you use with it. Thru studio monitors it sounds like an amp recorded with a mic. Thru either guitar poweramp and cab or FRFR PA type setup (PA cabs or the Atomic FR) it sounds like a non-miced amp in a room.

I know this is getting boring very fast... but the sound I heard sounded very much like a guitar through a mixer. And it was a preset. I tried to cut highs and bass in the GEQ but nothing changed

I believe the test with the 2x12 will be the ultimate one for me, even though I believe such a monster should be tamed to at least sound realistic even via FRF.

The thing I'd hate more would be wasting the opportunity to discover a powerful machine because I have not been able to make it sound good. Let's see, tomorrow is the day

 

[viabcroce]

Have a look at the manual. Check global param: I/O set to front, amp block on, cab on, global eq flat. Be sure level is not clipping, some soundboard does not detect it.

mhhh... wasn't the global eq the place devoted to cut highs and bass to emulate a guitar system's beahaviour? :?

 

[Admin M@]

There must have been something wrong in my attempts, or in my approach

Not necessarily... There may have been something wrong with your expectations. Are you comparing the sound obtained to that of a close-mic'd amp?

 

[lauke-lux]

Hi Gianfranco, and welcome to the forum.

".....You have to realize that the Axe-fx does NOT (by itself) easily sound like an "amp in the room"...

.....be warned that this third option can take a long time. It would be quite an achievement if you succeeded during a brief trial period...."

You're so right. It took me about 14 months & still tweaking a little bit but definitely in the upper part of the learning curve now. My next trip will (YES !!) be next year August, but not so far southly as ROME.

Ciaou

 

[viabcroce]

Not necessarily... There may have been something wrong with your expectations. Are you comparing the sound obtained to that of a close-mic'd amp?

Hi Matt, nice to meet you on the board

As I've been trying to point out, the sound I got was like a guitar through a mixing board, or direct into a computer's audio interface.
What I did was taking a preset, excluding its effect bocks (as many times suggested on these pages), and tweaking. No way I was able to make it sound like an amp, were it mic'd or in the room.

This wide audio band, this thinness and lack of presence and thump which was exalted by the FRFR, is probably destined to become meaningless (or less meaningful) once a guitar cab is used, but this (very short) experience made me think. I also took advantage of the many pages I read on this as well as other boards in the last year, and the most common complaints I've come across in my learning process.

I started reflecting about the engineering idea behind the machine: is this flat, linear sonic behaviour useful to some application? Wouldn't it be better (genuine question here, no rhetoric) if the amps alone already sounded like amps, with a narrower band and more suited EQ settings?

If (like I think, but I may be wrong here) the linearity is just a heritage from the Axe's sonic accuracy an broad band, my impression is that this easily prevents many first users from appreciating the unit. You know, people not able to understand which trick to apply to get the magic, not able to deepen the subject or simply not willing to. I think the amps should by default be offered with realistic, tamed sounds.

If, instead, this linearity serves some purpose, I believe it might be effective (for increasing easiness of use, and a faster and wider appreciation of the unit) to introduce (in firmware) a new switch in the Global section: FRFR/Guitar Cab, offering two roughly ready settings for one or the other use. If the setting could be overruled on a per-amp basis with another switch in the Amp block, it would also be of help to those who use both approaches in different situations, with the opportunity to save the switch state in each preset (in the Axe II, a connection with the X/Y tool easily comes to mind).

Given the hundreds of specific cases, exceptions, individual needs, tastes etc, I'm aware this solution would not automatically offer the best results to each and every user: but it might be a very good starting point for individual sonic quests, certainly statistically closer to the optimum than the current one which seems, to me, far from everything.

What do you guys think?

I'm aware my English translates sometimes strange, and may become involved when I try to build more than trivial concepts... I apologize for this.

 

[Smilzo]

What do you guys think?

Gianfranco, something going wrong with your check. The more I think about it, the more I think you could have incidentally switched on "bypass" button. You heard your guitar to desk.

About global eq...
I use 4 patches with a verve 12MA. No big FRFR, but small, light & not much expensive. I had the opportunity to share Axefx in many jam. If there is a traditionale guitar rack, I go to global set cabinet to off. If there is an head or combo with loop return, I go to global and set cabinet and poweramp to off. If there is a mixer, I go to global out 1 and tweak eq. Everyone at the jam enjoy at least one of my patches, and is impressed like a real tube amp, from clean to mean, by personal taste. But no one told me "digital" or "hi fi".

About modeling...
It is at least as good any modeler in mimic real amp tone. It is some step ahead in feel: not there, but close enough. What you describe is not an Axefx...

I'll wait your next test.

 

[viabcroce]

Gianfranco, something going wrong with your check. The more I think about it, the more I think you could have incidentally switched on "bypass" button. You heard your guitar to desk.

...Well, I'm sure that was not the case... I was interacting with the unit via Editor, and it responded to the changes (Good try though LOL)

no one told me "digital" or "hi fi".

LOL this might become the ultimate kind of verbal aggression... :mrgreen

What you describe is not an Axefx...

I'll wait your next test.

... I'm curious too! If I can, I'll grab some syx and record some sound.

BTW, does anyone recall whether a patch update/refresh/reset was requested after updating to FW 11, similarly to AxeII 2.0 update? Is this something I should be checking as well? :?

 

[JJunkie]

Hi Matt, nice to meet you on the board

As I've been trying to point out, the sound I got was like a guitar through a mixing board, or direct into a computer's audio interface.
What I did was taking a preset, excluding its effect bocks (as many times suggested on these pages), and tweaking. No way I was able to make it sound like an amp, were it mic'd or in the room.

This wide audio band, this thinness and lack of presence and thump which was exalted by the FRFR, is probably destined to become meaningless (or less meaningful) once a guitar cab is used, but this (very short) experience made me think. I also took advantage of the many pages I read on this as well as other boards in the last year, and the most common complaints I've come across in my learning process.

I started reflecting about the engineering idea behind the machine: is this flat, linear sonic behaviour useful to some application? Wouldn't it be better (genuine question here, no rhetoric) if the amps alone already sounded like amps, with a narrower band and more suited EQ settings?

If (like I think, but I may be wrong here) the linearity is just a heritage from the Axe's sonic accuracy an broad band, my impression is that this easily prevents many first users from appreciating the unit. You know, people not able to understand which trick to apply to get the magic, not able to deepen the subject or simply not willing to. I think the amps should by default be offered with realistic, tamed sounds.

If, instead, this linearity serves some purpose, I believe it might be effective (for increasing easiness of use, and a faster and wider appreciation of the unit) to introduce (in firmware) a new switch in the Global section: FRFR/Guitar Cab, offering two roughly ready settings for one or the other use. If the setting could be overruled on a per-amp basis with another switch in the Amp block, it would also be of help to those who use both approaches in different situations, with the opportunity to save the switch state in each preset (in the Axe II, a connection with the X/Y tool easily comes to mind).

Given the hundreds of specific cases, exceptions, individual needs, tastes etc, I'm aware this solution would not automatically offer the best results to each and every user: but it might be a very good starting point for individual sonic quests, certainly statistically closer to the optimum than the current one which seems, to me, far from everything.

What do you guys think?

I'm aware my English translates sometimes strange, and may become involved when I try to build more than trivial concepts... I apologize for this.

hey Gianfranco, your english is really good.

I agree with you, they heven't made it easy for first time users to appreciate the unit. Lets just say that it has taken me "a long time" to come to grips with achieving good sounds. Then again, my one and only amp ever was a JCM800.. and I stopped "tweaking" the few available controls on it 7 years ago.

I think the crux of the problem, for guitarists, is that the axe-fx has been set up for studio effects use, meaning, like you say, everything is flat, full-range, unless you tell it otherwise.

For some reason, cutting high and low frequencies out went against my natural instincts, but it is necessary, and I became a believer once I analysed a bunch of guitar tones from CDs - hardly anything happening over 6kHz... But, at times I still have to manually filter out high and low frequencies even when using cab sims...

also, effect pedals have their own frequency ranges, and some are quite limited, but still sound awesome in real life. The effects in the Axe-fx are full range... We need to adjust the frequency band for these effects to make it sound good for a guitar... narrowing an effect from 20Hz-20kHz to 200Hz-2.5kHz again kind of goes against my natural instincts. It is often said to "tweak with your ears, not your eyes".... I agree with this, but must admit, I can appreciate a good tone with my ears, but getting at guitar tone from A to B is a whole other matter. I am still not very gifted at that.

My conclusion is that, yes, they could have set the unit up to behave as a "modeler". I think the unit is definitely capable of modeling specific amps, effects, based on many great examples available on the net. But instead, we bought a blank canvas. Inspiring for some, frustrating for others - it takes time to adjust to, and it wouldn't surprise me if there are some people who have spent comparative amounts of time tweaking their axe-fx than it took Fractal to design it.

 

[viabcroce]

Thanks JJ

I appreciate your opinions! I believe what you just said enforces the opportunity for a sort of FRFR/Cab switch. It's often said that you appreciate more what you earned by your efforts, but this is a field where this motto hardly applies. YMMV ;D

You know, point is: shall I run a risk, and invest time and money betting on axe's potential and on my ability to tame it to my needs? I believe it's a good world the one where I'm not obliged to. Just IMO, of course.
I know, I know: "you can always resell the unit at a small or no loss"... but this just happens by accident, and I'm sure Mr. Chase was not counting on this crazy market situation when he first wrote down his machine's specifications

Thanks for joining the thread