MV Poll

[App12]

Oddly enough, all those people that have never played the real amps manage to grasp the authentic knobs for every other control that's carried over from the amps.

Unless they are using the idealized settings. And most of them probably don't know how authentic the setting is vs a real amp - they just turn it till it sounds good.

 

[Ben.Last]

Unless they are using the idealized settings. And most of them probably don't know how authentic the setting is vs a real amp - they just turn it till it sounds good.

The settings on the idealized page that exist on the real amps still function authentically. And, yes, exactly.

 

[jon]

Unless they are using the idealized settings. And most of them probably don't know how authentic the setting is vs a real amp - they just turn it till it sounds good.

Exactly this!

See, there are thousands and thousands of helix, Kemper and boss players that are dialing things ti they 'sound good' - have you ever looked at or tried dialing in a pod/helix/toaster? You end up with all kinds of extreme settings and twiddle with advanced parameters for HOURS, to sound good....and NONE of them complain that their mids are on 10 when John Petrucci's is on 7. They tweak till they get the sounds they want, and SWEAR that it's better than an axe fx too!

We all want to dial in tones EASILY. That's why this firmware and all firmwares are so exciting, it gets easier to the real thing, and we twiddle LESS. Why we want a finicky knob to have to dial MORE with a feather touch is beyond me....

The axe is so accurate we now can dial in sounds by eyeballing our favorite artists amps.....but this is a BENEFIT, not the main attraction.....I don't know anyone who switched from pod to axe fx because they could dial in the mids by eye, but it's nice to have. Not NEED to have. Our Rockstars would dial in what sounded right to them THAT NIGHT, and if they needed more MV or presence they would dial it in! It's nice to eyeball these settings and get close, but even then, it's just that, CLOSE-anyone of you who played a tube amp knows the feather micro touch you would need to dial in things night after night. And the sharpie marks above the knobs with your favorite settings. Our heroes did this too. And if it needed tweaking, they would tweak it! They didn't know if they put it at 2.4 or 2.5 - MOST AMPS DON'T HAVE FINE GRADUATIONS

So eyeballing a setting gives you just a ballpark, you don't know if they were barely audible mic'd up at 0.9 or melting ears at 1.1, because you can't see that accurately, and with component drift, tube amp moodiness and venue requirements, these things would change.

We all want easier.

We drive cars instead of horses now

We put on light switches now instead of pitch lanterns

We rather carry an axe fx than lug 3 heavy amps and cabs to a gig

We love when a new firmware comes out so there are minimal tweaks to get a great tone

We even look at amp settings now to ape our heroes' tones, how cool is that?

We want easier, not harder and more finicky and twiddly.

Most people want to plug in AND SOUND GOOD, be it a tube amp, helix or axe fx, and most don't want to learn to dial in 300 finicky tapers. We want progression, not regression.

Cliff even gets us BOTH, why do we insist on making things more difficult when a clearly superior option is given to us?

 

[johnnypig]

I just want the older amps to be as realistic as possible, especially tweeds and blackfaces. BF & tweed Deluxe especially in beta5 is a deep well of tones throughout the MV range already.
It's a non-issue on most modern amps anyway, especially with the headroom meter.
MV in Axe is a flavor enhancer. Amp block level sets the actual volume.

 

[jon]

I just want the older amps to be as realistic as possible, especially tweeds and blackfaces. BF & tweed Deluxe especially in beta5 is a deep well of tones throughout the MV range already.
It's a non-issue on most modern amps anyway, especially with the headroom meter.
MV in Axe is a flavor enhancer. Amp block level sets the actual volume.

Yup, exactly that- a flavor enhancer!

Which is why having a wide, useable, logical range of flavors to choose from is so much tastier

 

[johnnypig]

Right, which is already true of the "realistic" tapers of 99% of amps except for a few instances, which apparently haunt the dreams for the fractal audio forum users.

 

[Douglas Costa]

I just want that my modeled amp works like the original, including the so important MV.

How many times, with old modelers, I paused videos on Youtube to copy the amp settings and it sounded so wrong.

We all want a digital replacement for Tube Amps, and everybody complains when an amp does not sound like the original, the let's embrace 100% Authentic Modeling.

 

[App12]

I've already made up my mind. If an amp has an MV taper of greater than 15A the model's taper will be 15A otherwise it will match the amp.

I.e., a Blues Jr. has an MV taper that is linear (which is ridiculous). The model's taper will therefore be 15A.

There are a handful of exceptions, i.e. Camerons have linear taper MV and you need it with them because the signal level into the power amp is very low due to the Jose topology.

I've gone back and forth between 10A and 15A though. Still debating.

To give @yek nightmares, let’s have a poll to debate if 10A or 15A is more authentic or not ...

 

[tysonlt]

Goes to show, even something as simple as a volume knob can get very complicated under the hood. Glad Cliff has made an expert call. All I care about is not reliving the nightmare of HRD / Blues Jr linear controls!

Fun fact, I’m one of those who’s hardly ever played a real amp - except the HRD for about 15 years. It was almost unusable in small venues due to the difficulty in making minute adjustments at around 1. A THD hotplate was a very early purchase.

 

[Bruce4mayor]

This feels like much to do about nothing. Nobody is going to blow their neighbor's ears out by changing the MV from .9 to 1.1 in the amp model... The Axefx isn't a tube amp where a small change to the MV will make your power amp jump to screaming levels. The amp block is always easily adjustable with the Level control.

I think I prefer authentic where possible, warts and all... Cliff seams to have arrived at a reasonable compromise.

 

[unix-guy]

This feels like much to do about nothing. Nobody is going to blow their neighbor's ears out by changing the MV from .9 to 1.1 in the amp model... The Axefx isn't a tube amp where a small change to the MV will make your power amp jump to screaming levels. The amp block is always easily adjustable with the Level control.

I think I prefer authentic where possible, warts and all... Cliff seams to have arrived at a reasonable compromise.

If you are feeding it into something that is amplifying it, such as FRFR speakers, it will still potentially have a large change in volume. The simulated power amp will have a large jump that will then be passed down the line...

 

[jefferski]

I like Cliff's approach of using an authentic taper where it makes sense, and an idealized taper in cases where the real amp's taper is hard to work with.

There are good points made for either. In the end, I agree with this.

 

[Bruce4mayor]

If you are feeding it into something that is amplifying it, such as FRFR speakers, it will still potentially have a large change in volume. The simulated power amp will have a large jump that will then be passed down the line...

I am using it exact in that manner and I respectfully disagree. I have experienced nothing like what's being described using Cygnus beta 16.00 Beta 5. I think this is being over exaggerated. Any added volume can easily be compensated with the Amp Level control. It isn't like I accidentally turned the output volume knob up.

Again, either the old way or the compromise that Cliff described sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[unix-guy]

I am using it exact in that manner and I respectfully disagree. I have experienced nothing like what's being described using Cygnus beta 16.00 Beta 5. I think this is being over exaggerated. Any added volume can easily be compensated with the Amp Level control. It isn't like I accidentally turned the output volume knob up.

Again, either the old way or the compromise that Cliff described sounds pretty reasonable to me.

The potential is apparently there in some models... It's not every model, only specific ones. It depends on the particular amp.

There's more discussion on it in the firmware thread.

If the real amp exhibits the behavior and the Axe Fx models the behavior authentically, then the model will behave the same way.

 

[Wired]

I’ll take my master volume however Cliff decides, and I’ll say thank you. This firmware and the constant pursuit of making things better is amazing.

 

[giantslayer]

I am using it exact in that manner and I respectfully disagree. I have experienced nothing like what's being described using Cygnus beta 16.00 Beta 5. I think this is being over exaggerated. Any added volume can easily be compensated with the Amp Level control. It isn't like I accidentally turned the output volume knob up.

Again, either the old way or the compromise that Cliff described sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Agreed. Besides, using a modeler frees us from having to use the MV to manage the actual volume of an amp. Frankly, an amp like a Blues Jr I would probably run the master wide open if I didn’t have to worry about actual volume. I wouldn’t care what it sounds like between 0.9 and 1.10.

 

[Werpinater]

If you are feeding it into something that is amplifying it, such as FRFR speakers, it will still potentially have a large change in volume. The simulated power amp will have a large jump that will then be passed down the line...

I don’t think that would be too much of an issue. The digital IO would clip and protect the level before too much of a jump in the real world level occurred. If running the level near 0Db on the Axe output meters, there’s a lot of headroom, but not enough to go from whisper quiet to neighbors knocking down the door levels like some of these amps. And the Axe has a lot of output headroom! The Axe output would clip and the power amp would possibly enter protect mode at that dramatic of a spike, thus making that probably not too much of an issue.


Personally, I am fine with the Master Volume however Cliff decides to program it. I set sounds with my ears, and if I need to reassure my ears with my eyes I look at the headroom meter rather than the master volume position. In the end Cliff decides and it will sound awesome either way.

 

[unix-guy]

I don’t think that would be too much of an issue. The digital IO would clip and protect the level before too much of a jump in the real world level occurred. If running the level near 0Db on the Axe output meters, there’s a lot of headroom, but not enough to go from whisper quiet to neighbors knocking down the door levels like some of these amps. And the Axe has a lot of output headroom! The Axe output would clip and the power amp would possibly enter protect mode at that dramatic of a spike, thus making that probably not too much of an issue.


Personally, I am fine with the Master Volume however Cliff decides to program it. I set sounds with my ears, and if I need to reassure my ears with my eyes I look at the headroom meter rather than the master volume position. In the end Cliff decides and it will sound awesome either way.

Have you ever accidentally entered 15 instead of -15 (when adjusting from -12 or so) on the Amp block level control in Axe-Edit while plugged into loud-ish FRFR speakers?

I have... Believe me when I tell you the Axe Fx did not clip the I/O and my Matrix did not go into protection mode.

But my tighty-whities sure did!

It's freaking loud and will scare the snot (or other bodily fluids) out of you.

MV is obviously different than Level but depending on the model can still make a big difference in overall level.

Anyway... Cliff will do what he thinks is best. I'll be fine with whatever his choice is...

 

[steadystate]

I've never had a problem setting master volume in the past, and I'm certain I'll never have a problem setting it in the future. I couldn't care less where the knob is pointing. But sudden low resolution changes over a tiny angle always piss me off.

 

[electronpirate]

I guess I don't care.

I think of it like I have a roomful of amps. Every single one does not react the same way the others do. You have to dig in and figure it out each time. No amount of great downloaded presets, default values, or other shortcuts is going to make it easier. Get in there, move a few knobs, and figure it out.

Again, who cares about a MV taper that is on the edge of extreme pedantic wildness? Get in the gym and work.

R