Multi-Delay: Seems to cut out randomly while playing?

Muzick

Muzick

Experienced
I've got a very lush multidelay going on and sometimes while playing, it disappears and disrupts the atmosphere I've created. All of my pedals bypass modes are set to "thru", and I've tried rebuilding the patch from scratch. Any thoughts here?

Delay Main.jpg

4.0DB of duck going on
-80 threshhold
10ms ducker release time
 
Never experienced that and from a short glance at the layout I can't see a reason.
Post the patch for further diagnosis.
 
Been busy. Here's the preset for the patch. Still happening. Seems to happen mostly when I switch from my drive pedal to the clean channel. At first it sounds so lush and atmospheric and a couple seconds later it's like the multi delay disappears completely. Any help here is much appreciated. Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • Shiver Clean.syx
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when I get a mo, I'll try your preset out

does this have any special features / modifier assignments?
 
I'm wondering if this is due to the choice of delay times..

try this experiment
mute the 1st string and pick it so you hear a click rather than a sustained note

you can hear the delays individually

if you pick at about 1 sec intervals you'll hear the delays getting closer together and then further apart, and then closer and further again
or alternatively, watch the tempo flash and try to play the click every 4th flash [click, 2, 3, 4, click, 2, 3, 4]
the effect this will have on your music is that you'll have what you think is lots of delays [what you are looking for] and then gradually they'll sit on top of one another and you'll only have one delay, and then they'll spear out again

I tried setting the delay times to 300, 600, 900, 1200
this stopped the 'bunching up' because the times are all multiples of each other
I don't know if this is what you are looking for
if you are using sync'd times then try using the same types of value
I tried 1/8dot, 1/4dot, 1/2dot, 1dot
sounded quite interesting
 
Ok, could reproduce it once. Took me a while of playing around, which was fun as it's a nice sounding patch :)

At first I thought it could be related to the crossover setting and/or the time settings (like clarky suggested), but I doubt it.
As I said I could reproduce it only once (and then I had crossover set to 0%), but it's very noticeable. It sounds like you were drastically reducing the decay time or as if you reduced the feedback on the regular delay.

You might do some troubleshooting by choosing other time settings or disabling the ducking feature but at the moment I'm puzzled as well.
 
clarky said:
I'm wondering if this is due to the choice of delay times..

try this experiment
mute the 1st string and pick it so you hear a click rather than a sustained note

you can hear the delays individually

if you pick at about 1 sec intervals you'll hear the delays getting closer together and then further apart, and then closer and further again
or alternatively, watch the tempo flash and try to play the click every 4th flash [click, 2, 3, 4, click, 2, 3, 4]
the effect this will have on your music is that you'll have what you think is lots of delays [what you are looking for] and then gradually they'll sit on top of one another and you'll only have one delay, and then they'll spear out again

I tried setting the delay times to 300, 600, 900, 1200
this stopped the 'bunching up' because the times are all multiples of each other
I don't know if this is what you are looking for
if you are using sync'd times then try using the same types of value
I tried 1/8dot, 1/4dot, 1/2dot, 1dot
sounded quite interesting
Click to expand...


Thanks for the in depth response Clarky!! I'll give this a shot tonight.
 
Sebastian said:
Ok, could reproduce it once. Took me a while of playing around, which was fun as it's a nice sounding patch :)

At first I thought it could be related to the crossover setting and/or the time settings (like clarky suggested), but I doubt it.
As I said I could reproduce it only once (and then I had crossover set to 0%), but it's very noticeable. It sounds like you were drastically reducing the decay time or as if you reduced the feedback on the regular delay.

You might do some troubleshooting by choosing other time settings or disabling the ducking feature but at the moment I'm puzzled as well.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I'm glad you were able to experience the same problem. At first I thought it was the ducking feature too. I have played with it completely disabled (which is basically unbearable as it gets too muddy without it), but the problem still occurred. I haven't played with the delay settings too much... as I like where they are set at the moment, but I'll start messing around.


Thanks for taking the time to try the patch out guys!
 
dude, are you deliberately ducking? as in.. was this something you chose to do when creating this preset?

turn the attenuation down to 0 to switch it off..
if you want gentle ducking you could always try lower attenuation values.. like 2 or less..
4dB is actually quite a big cut.. especially if you are after a subtle ducking effect
with a strongly ambient tone like this, I'd not use ducking at all..
you'd want the delays to be smooth and soft rather than pumping..

if you are ducking, in an ambient tone I'd expect longer release times too..
this would prevent the delay tails rushing back into the mix...

personally, I'd just turn it off
 
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clarky said:
dude, are you deliberately ducking? as in.. was this something you chose to do when creating this preset?

turn the attenuation down to 0 to switch it off..
if you want gentle ducking you could always try lower attenuation values.. like 2 or less..
4dB is actually quite a big cut.. especially if you are after a subtle ducking effect
with a strongly ambient tone like this, I'd not use ducking at all..
you'd want the delays to be smooth and soft rather than pumping..

if you are ducking, in an ambient tone I'd expect longer release times too..
this would prevent the delay tails rushing back into the mix...

personally, I'd just turn it off
Click to expand...

lol, yes I'm deliberately ducking. I thought ducking allowed the guitar tone to shine through just a bit more than the delay? The thought here was that it would allow me to have a ridicously lush delay but keep the guitar tone at the forefront at all times? I did try 2db of duck last night to see if it would improve the situation but the problem happened again. Though when I turned it off completely the problem didn't seem to occur. This doesn't seem right to me still? My logic here is that, when I play my guitar, the delay sound is turned down a bit (by 2db in this case). What's happening though is it seems to be disappearing all together??
 
EDITED: cos I got this back to front

-80 is a very strong duck thresh setting

try this [and do not play long sustained notes - play short stabs to 'hear' the gate]

thresh = -80
atten = 80

this is brutal and you'll hear the delay getting all broke up [or maybe even no delay at all]

relax the thresh to -40 and listen to the difference
play a note that don't sustain
you'll hear the note sound, then a 10ms gap [your release time]
and then the delay will rush in

we are not gating anywhere near as hard so more delay is let through

now try
thresh = -80
atten = 1.0
you are still gating like nuts, but the gain reduction is so small you hardly notice


try
thresh = -20
atten = 4 to 6
release = 30 or 50

these settings are a bit more gentle.. you may have more joy with them

the reason it was not easy to hear what was happening before was I imagine playing style..
play a loud note / chord and don't allow it to sustain and the effects are more noticeable..
sustained notes will have masked the effects when trying to find out what was wrong...
 
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clarky said:
EDITED: cos I got this back to front

-80 is a very strong duck thresh setting

try this [and do not play long sustained notes - play short stabs to 'hear' the gate]

thresh = -80
atten = 80

this is brutal and you'll hear the delay getting all broke up [or maybe even no delay at all]

relax the thresh to -40 and listen to the difference
play a note that don't sustain
you'll hear the note sound, then a 10ms gap [your release time]
and then the delay will rush in

we are not gating anywhere near as hard so more delay is let through

now try
thresh = -80
atten = 1.0
you are still gating like nuts, but the gain reduction is so small you hardly notice


try
thresh = -20
atten = 4 to 6
release = 30 or 50

these settings are a bit more gentle.. you may have more joy with them

the reason it was not easy to hear what was happening before was I imagine playing style..
play a loud note / chord and don't allow it to sustain and the effects are more noticeable..
sustained notes will have masked the effects when trying to find out what was wrong...
Click to expand...

This makes a lot of sense. I will do this tonight. Thanks a lot Clarky!
 
DUCKING in general-terms...

Hello B.I.T.M,

First of all +1 to everything clarky suggested!

Here is a "general idea" of one of the most typical applications of ducking (for a guitarist):

For slow/atmospheric-stuff (long-delays, etc.) you want it to NOT duck the effect level too much (therefore making the delay-effects more pronounced/wetter.) However, when your playing faster-bits/"shredding" you'd probably want your delay-effects less-pronounced/dryer (thus reducing the "cluttered-sound.") For example, the great Steve Morse sort of does a "manual" version of ducking by using a volume-pedal to control his delay's input level so when he's playing fast alternate-picked/staccato-stuff he "pulls the delay back" (or out altogether) with the pedal, and conversely when he's doing a big sustained-note (like a "climatic-bend-with-vibrato" at the end of a run) he'll "swell the delay in" with the pedal.

BTW, I'm NOT trying to talk you into avoiding the ducking-feature and/or to do it the way Steve Morse does! In fact, I think with more subtle/looser parameter-settings (threshold, attenuation, and release - like those which clarky suggested perhaps) you'll achieve your desired results!

Bill
 
BORNintoMUSIC said:
This makes a lot of sense. I will do this tonight. Thanks a lot Clarky!
Click to expand...

I understand what you've explained Clarky. Unfortunately the same problem remains even with the same delay settings. I'm at 4db atten. -20 thresh. and -30 release. I tried all the settings and while I agree the delay settings are actually clearly than what I was initially looking for, the same problem happens.... I'll play for awhile and all of the sudden the delay cuts out and leaves me dry. All I have at the moment is Amp -> Cab -> Multi-Delay. It sounds just how I want it when I first start playing, but then all of the sudden it cuts out. :(

Unless I see other responses, I'm going to walk into the show and compensate.


Thanks for your help so far....
 
Patterns in the Detuned Multitap Plex Shifter

Hi all,

Well, it seems you've discovered something mathmatical here...

This effect isn't "cutting out" and it isn't random. It has nothing to do with ducking. It is not a bug. But there is something to it. I find it most interesting.

I ran a single 40 Hz sawtooth wave into your MTD, set the mix to 100%, hit RECORD and let it run for half an hour.

I cannot deduce the exact mechanics, but I was instantly able to spot a symmetrical pattern.

To elucidate, made this screen shot of the waveform and modified it in Photoshop.

MTD-pattern.jpg


- On the left side of the central line, you see the pattern as recorded.
- On the right side of the line, you see BOTH the pattern as it continued to be recorded, and an overlay -- a mirror image of the left side -- set to highlight differences between right and mirror-image left. Small!

This pattern of course continued. I recorded it for half an hour in total, with the segment show above representing about 10 minutes.

I first intuited this to be some kind of constructive/deconstructive cycle caused by the delay times being whole number ratios (1/8... 3/16...1/4... 3/16, butI felt that at 147 BPM the overal period should be much much shorter if that were the case.

Looking for other ideas, I turned off the MASTER DETUNE to 0.0 and suddenly the sound became very static over a period of a few minutes.

So there you have it. The detune is causing some kind of periodic cancellation.

Now, it will take a more knowledgeable person to explain what it is about the Plex Shifter Detune that causes this effect, but I bet you can now guess how adapt the preset to change what you don't like hearing.

At the moment, I'm listening to a variant of the preset where the detunes have been set assymetrically to prime numbers: +11, +3, -5, -7. There is still an overall modulation with definite ebb and flow, but after several minutes I have yet to hear any really obvious "dead zones." I also tried putting a random LFO with damping on MASTER PITCH with interesting effect. (90%-110% range).

By the way... these tests are BEAUTIFUL to listen to. If you're interested maybe I'll post it to Soundcloud.
 
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Now that's what I call an explanation! :)
I also thought about self-cancellation but suspected that it's a combination of the material (pitch and length) and the delay times.

I'd be interested to hear those tests; beautiful or not, it would add some more clarification to what's going on.
 
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