Monitors suggestion

[strabes]

here in Italy

Hedd monitors are made in Berlin, might be easier to get in Italy than something made in USA. The company was started by the guy who designed the Adam AX series but they far outperform that series (as they should considering the price). Bass ports are configurable as open or closed depending on your room, and there's integrated DSP for linear phase, desk reflections correction, AES inputs for eliminating an extra DA/AD conversion, etc. They get quite loud but obviously not like a PA speaker which might be a better choice in your situation.

 

[ezellohar]

I've heard this kind of comment a number of times about different speakers, and I've honestly been wondering where it comes from.

It doesn't make sense to me that one set of speakers can flatter "everything". If a song is a little on the scooped side, a mid-forward set of speakers could flatter it. But a mid-forward song on the same system would be further outside of "normal". So, just in that example, how could one set of speakers flatter both songs?

Then, consider that kind of reasoning for every "broad" descriptor of a sound.

Like I said, I've heard this a lot, and I'm not calling you out in any way, ezellohar. I just don't understand it.

As another example, I've also heard other mastering engineers talking about how they don't like attended sessions because "everything sounds great in a mastering room because the system and room are so good"...and others because "everything sounds bad in a mastering room because it's like listening with a microscope". Others have said that monitors need to be "unforgiving" above all else.

All of the specific people I'm talking about are very talented engineers - I wouldn't insult any of their abilities. But, they talk about their monitors very, very differently....and vaguely.

I assume the answer is "different strokes..." combined with people not really being able to (or wanting to) discuss all the technical things that separate good monitors from bad. And, at the end of the day, if you're using something that plays what you need to hear and lets your work translate to the widest possible playback scenarios, then they're the right monitors for you.

For me, good monitoring comes down to about 6 things: frequency response accuracy relative to my preferred target curves, low noise, low distortion, short decay time, well-controlled modes/resonances, and (for speakers) controlled directivity. Those things can all be measured and proven, at least after you figure out which target curve(s) you like. It's much harder (almost impossible) to accurately measure decay/resonance in Headphones and especially IEMs since they're more directly affected by your anatomy (hence, why preferences in them can be so much more varied).

I've been asking for years, but if anybody can actually explain words like "flattering" and "unforgiving" in this context, I'd be forever grateful. I'm honestly not convinced I've ever heard either, and I've listened to some incredibly nice and expensive systems from both the studio and hi-fi worlds.

Well, my 2 cents on the topic is just that ear training is more important than the gear you're using. A good sound engineer first should have good ears, trained to hear what he needs to change to get the sound he wants, and then, of course, the knowledge and skill to get there.
This translate that a good engineers can get good results with any piece of gear you throw at them.
Then, and this maybe relates to the question above, is the familiarity with a system. If you know well the characteristics of the gear you're using, then what you do more likely will translate well on other speakers (i.e. you won't over-do corrections biased on the ones you're using).

I'm not a professional, but I play and mix by 25 years now (wow, that went fast, didn't realize it). So, I'm don't think I can get into technical details, also, please keep in mind that the phrase was intended as a joke. That said, those tannoys were really very different sounding than most of my other speakers. For my taste I said bad, because I never liked listening music there. But, as I said, learning the system goes a long way. And I was able to mix with them nonetheless, and in time, getting used to that specific 'sound' of those speaker, helped me understanding if there was one problematic frequency to correct (please bear in mind most were home recording, of amateur stuff: I mean maybe with an excellent tracking in better studios it shouldn't be necessary. That's simply what often I have to do).
For the genelec, I tried both the old 6010 and the 8010. I'm simply amazed by how good sounding they are despite the size. I like a lot listening to music on them.

Going on your quest to understand better why someone could say that, as I already stated, more knowledgeable people than me should answer. My guess could be that the frequency response is not the only important thing in a speaker, but there are a lot of non-linear factors to consider, detail, distortion and so on. maybe a speaker with less detail, less instrument separation, maybe even less responsive, maybe also add a specific curve could 'smooth' the sound in a way that's more enjoyable when listening. less desirable when you want to mix and you need to perceive details to understand better what's going on. make sense?

 

[ezellohar]

Hedd monitors are made in Berlin, might be easier to get in Italy than something made in USA. The company was started by the guy who designed the Adam AX series but they far outperform that series (as they should considering the price). Bass ports are configurable as open or closed depending on your room, and there's integrated DSP for linear phase, desk reflections correction, AES inputs for eliminating an extra DA/AD conversion, etc. They get quite loud but obviously not like a PA speaker which might be a better choice in your situation.

Didn't know them. Looking at the specifics they seem awesome. I'll see if I can try them, thank you!

 

[PSea]

I currently run my FM3 through a EVPXM12-MP. Looking for better sound. Neumann's are well out of my budget. For Genelec, are the 8010 or 8020's good for a basement studio with distances no more than say 12 to 15 feet? Most of the Genelecs, like the Neumanns are WELL above my budget.

get a 2nd ev. Sounds glorious!

 

[SpudMan]

get a 2nd ev. Sounds glorious!

I am actually very unhappy with my EVPXM12-MP. Looking for alternatives and considering studio monitors, other FRFR monitors, or even a guitar speaker cabinet with a tube power amp.

 

[gitfruit]

I once tried the K&H 120s that are now Neumann´s. No way I would have bought them without a sub. So I ended up with larger used Adam´s P11 that were great, but because I wanted more low end I bought Adam´s P33 and sold the P11´s. Big mistake, should have kept the 11´s as well.
In short, I like larger monitors, even in my small home studio/office. I can´t bond with a sub.
oh, I have a CLR on the floor for playing guitar, too.

 

[Tompski]

A bit above my budget, but not impossible are the Footprint3's. They seem really nice and made in the USA! Also, I like the meme box that allows for hi-fi listening, and also, if I am reading it correctly, for FRFR for my guitar and for a keyboard. The Kali's look good also, but Made in China.

Wait! These can be FRFR as well?

 

[Tompski]

Barefoot.
Genelec.
Adam.

Would you choose the Barefoot Footprint 03 over a pair of Genelec 8030Cs? I want good monitors, but I also want a really enjoyable experience playing through my FM9 and other guitar interfaces. I'm unhappy with the guitar tone I'm getting with my Adam T5Vs.

 

[marsonic]

Would you choose the Barefoot Footprint 03 over a pair of Genelec 8030Cs? I want good monitors, but I also want a really enjoyable experience playing through my FM9 and other guitar interfaces. I'm unhappy with the guitar tone I'm getting with my Adam T5Vs.

It might be worth keeping an eye on the "In the Mix" youtube channel - he just posted a video of some of his speakers recorded with ear-canal microphones that sounds very realistic to me. He's also got a pretty darn good room. If he expands that to recording and providing more speaker comparisons, it's probably worth watching for a while. FWIW, the iLouds he tested sound impressive for the price. He also toggled his Trinnov Nova in the tests, so you can get an idea of what good room correction might be able to do for you (if the room is already good - correction is not a panacea).

Anyway....in some ways, you kind of just have to try things. Trying out speakers is a huge PITA if you want to do it right. There's a long list of things you have to get right and a lot of work that goes into swapping them out. That means that you can't do immediate A/B comparisons, which is what I think would be necessary to actually decide between them based on listening.

I hate shopping for speakers. The last time I bought speakers was ~10 years ago, and it took months of ordering and returning sets until I basically wore out my "welcome" with a couple different stores. There's a part of me that never wants to do it again. Whenever it comes up again, a) I'm making a huge jump with the goal of never buying speakers again and b) I'm probably buying entirely based on measurements and then adjusting the room and perhaps adding EQ if I have to. I'm going to have to net a lot more than I do now to make it worth even considering.

Anyway....based on what I've seen measured and/or heard, Genelec and Neumann tend to be the most neutral in most applications, which is what I personally look for in speakers. They're also on a very small list of speaker manufacturers that aren't "afraid of" objective testing, which puts them above most other companies to me. If a company is afraid of their speakers being independently tested, IMHO it means that they've got something to hide.

Personally...assuming your room isn't terrible (good placement, vaguely rectangular, decent ratios, at least corners and first reflection points covered with treatments), I would want to test out a few placements for 1-2 subwoofers matched to whichever ~5" Genelec or Neumann tops fit in the budget. The subwoofers make a big difference if you actually care about bass....but it also can take a good bit of treatment to make them play nicely.

I think the "step up" from that is easily 5-figures, and I don't think anything in-between is worth the money. Below that price point, IMHO, I would focus on treatments long before I'd upgrade speakers or anything else. As far as budget options go, I still haven't seen/heard anything I like better than the LSRs with the sole caveat that their subwoofers don't actually cover the bottom octave.

YMMV, and take this with a grain of salt - there are a lot of people enjoying and producing music with monitor/speaker setups that I think are "crap". I also might just be thinking about speakers from a completely different "level" or set of requirements than you.