Mixed Feelings On Ultra (I have 7.18)

[joegold]

I might experiment, every once in a while, with trying to make my 1 X 12 open back EVM-12L cab sound a bit more like a 4 X 12 Marshall cab by using one of the Axe's cab sims and it might be remotely successful, but it won't really sound like a 4 X 12.

It is for instances like these that a Direct level parameter within the Cab block would be very helpful, because you could instantly dial in just the right amount of Cab Simulation per patch without having to do extra stuff in the Layout section.

~Rad~

There is an IR going around from Jay Mitchell called IdealIR.syx.
Essentially it's an FRFR IR that can be loaded into an Axe User Cab slot for use as a Cab Type in the Cab Block.
If you used it in a stereo Cab Block with it and a real cab sim you could try out the effect you want.
But I've done so before and it's not all that.

I've posted the IR at my web site here:
http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/Ideal_IR.syx

Good luck.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Re: cab sims. If you are playing your Axe-Fx through a guitar cab - i.e., one that uses a single size transducer for all frequencies - you already have substantial coloration of your signal from that cab, regardless of the "quality" of the transducer(s) with which it is loaded. That is an unavoidable consequence of the laws of physics.

Cab sims are produced with the intent of recreating the sound of a specific cab when played through a system that adds no coloration of its own. Using cab sims with a guitar cab might be tweakable to the satisfaction of a given individual, but it is extremely unlikely that the result will be repeatable by anyone else and even less likely that the result is a sound that is even remotely similar to that of the cab from which the sim was taken.

My advice is to either resign yourself to the sonic character of a specific physical guitar cab and use the Axe-Fx with the cab sims off, or bite the bullet and come up with a neutral FRFR system. The former approach can work well within the limitations imposed by having only one speaker sound available.

 

[rocketmorton52]

Ok I gotta chime in here.

I had a 2x12 cab and used an SLA 1 and got a pretty decent sound with no cab sims.

I tried an EV powered speaker but didn't like the feel all that much (this was way back with 3.?? firmware though).

So the other day I bought a 12" Ev speaker cab for 20 bucks at a garage sale!!!!
I brought it to practice and used my Crate Powerblock to power it and everyone at practice was blown away,myself included.
Well practice went on and by the end of practice the tweeter was blown.So I shut the cab sims off and NOW it was just like playing through guitar cab.
The sound I got was lame ...it had no highs... no thump etc.....so I did some tweakin' and ended up using the cab sims with some creative EQ.
The sound I got was excellent...(not as good as with the tweeter working)I guess my point is I don't think there should be "rules" how to run this thing,there are tons tools built into the Axe Fx to accomadate almost any situation.

Now one question I do have. Why do I keep blow'n' the tweeter?
I replaced the blown one with a brand new one and it fried.The horn was rated at 50 watts and the running only one side of the crate powerblock is only 75 watts. Does that 25 watts make that much difference?

Anyway when I run into my 2 x 12 with no cab sims and a shitload of EQ it sounds "ok".
When I do the same with my 2x12 with cab sims AND EQ it sounds great!!

Just my mini rant.

 

[joegold]

Ok I gotta chime in here.

I had a 2x12 cab and used an SLA 1 and got a pretty decent sound with no cab sims.

I tried an EV powered speaker but didn't like the feel all that much (this was way back with 3.?? firmware though).

So the other day I bought a 12" Ev speaker cab for 20 bucks at a garage sale!!!!
I brought it to practice and used my Crate Powerblock to power it and everyone at practice was blown away,myself included.
Well practice went on and by the end of practice the tweeter was blown.So I shut the cab sims off and NOW it was just like playing through guitar cab.
The sound I got was lame ...it had no highs... no thump etc.....so I did some tweakin' and ended up using the cab sims with some creative EQ.
The sound I got was excellent...(not as good as with the tweeter working)I guess my point is I don't think there should be "rules" how to run this thing,there are tons tools built into the Axe Fx to accomadate almost any situation.

Now one question I do have. Why do I keep blow'n' the tweeter?
I replaced the blown one with a brand new one and it fried.The horn was rated at 50 watts and the running only one side of the crate powerblock is only 75 watts. Does that 25 watts make that much difference?

Anyway when I run into my 2 x 12 with no cab sims and a shitload of EQ it sounds "ok".
When I do the same with my 2x12 with cab sims AND EQ it sounds great!!

Just my mini rant.

There are no "rules" but there are norms.

And yes the Axe has a very large tool set that make it usable with all sorts of monitoring systems.
But its preamp sims were designed to closely match the output of real tube preamps.
When the Axe's preamps are played through a guitar-oriented tube power amp and cabinet that's why it sounds like you're playing a real guitar amp.
Its power amp sims are designed to closely match the sonic performance of real tube power amps when the Axe is monitored via a high quality power amp that adds no colour of its own.
That's why when the Axe is monitored through a reference amp like the Art SLA series and a guitar cabinet that it can sound so much like a real good tube based guitar amp.
Its cab sims are designed to closely match the frequency response, as well as other sonic qualities, of real-world cabinets *when the Axe is played through a FRFR system*.

*That's* what it was designed to do.

Of course you can use it in other ways as well, but don't expect it to fulfil the promises of its advertisements when you use it that way. If you do use it that way then you might come up with as yet unheard guitar sounds that other people also adopt as the years go on.
Hell, if guitar players always used their gear the way the manufacturers intended there'd be no rock 'n roll.

But if you want it to sound as good as it was designed to sound there *are* norms.

Not sure what to make of your comments about EV speakers.
The driver I've been recommending is *specifically* the EVM-12L driver (either the new "Classic Series" or the original Series II models) in an open-backed 1 X 12 enclosure.

 

[Radley]

Now one question I do have. Why do I keep blow'n' the tweeter?
I replaced the blown one with a brand new one and it fried.The horn was rated at 50 watts and the running only one side of the crate powerblock is only 75 watts. Does that 25 watts make that much difference?

Rocket,

You might try replacing that tweeter with a 4" or 5" piezo type - they are pretty robust and inexpensive.

~Rad~

 

[rocketmorton52]

Now one question I do have. Why do I keep blow'n' the tweeter?
I replaced the blown one with a brand new one and it fried.The horn was rated at 50 watts and the running only one side of the crate powerblock is only 75 watts. Does that 25 watts make that much difference?

Rocket,

You might try replacing that tweeter with a 4" or 5" piezo type - they are pretty robust and inexpensive.

~Rad~

Ok maybe I'll try that.The type I used was a horn with a diaphragm (well that's what was in it).

Thanks

 

[Zen Guitar]

It is documented that the preamps in the Axe-FX can be taylored to identically duplicate Fender and MESA mk IIc+ preamps, by running them into the same poweramp and cab.

Hi Dutch,

Can you provide a link to the threads where identically duplicating the Fender and Boogie preamps were documented/discussed? I don't mean this to sound challenging (as it isn't meant this way)... I'd genuinely just like to read through these and see if there is something that I've been missing.

Personally, I've long felt that the Fender simms in the Axe-Fx have been an obvious weak point and have spent a lot of time trying to duplicate the sound of my Blackface Super Reverb, to only limited success. I've tried most of presets that other users have offered as well as my own.

In terms of the IIC+, I've had much more luck with this one. I'll still continue to squeak about wishing for an accurate Mesa 5 band EQ, but this simm seems very usable apart from that. Not spot on, but good.

Cheers,
-Matt

 

[Merlin]

Stringtheorist, do you have cab sims on or off? I an finding it necessary to keep them on through my 2x12.

Definitely off. I agree with Joegold -- If you have cab sims on there must be something wrong... :|
What is it about turning off the cab sims that makes it sound 'wrong' to you?

Wow ... when i play through my marshall 6100 loop and with my vintage 30 cab i always have the powerampsim on and cabs on in the axe.
When i don,t do it it sounds very thin and no thumb..... Maybe with heavy EQ it would be better but never tryed that. With cabs and poweramp sim on it rocks btw
There MUST be something wrong if i hear you guys talk, because all the members in my band feel the same way about my sound.

Could it be a setting that i overall missed in the Axe, and other guys that experience the same?

 

[Stringtheorist]

There MUST be something wrong if i hear you guys talk, because all the members in my band feel the same way about my sound.

Could it be a setting that i overall missed in the Axe, and other guys that experience the same?

My 2x12 cab is loaded with V30s also but if I engage cab sims it's like throwing a blanket over it. I then need to EQ like mad to get the definition back. Must be something to do with your amp or the way you're setting up your AFX. How do you have your parameters set in the I/O menu?

 

[hwav]

There MUST be something wrong if i hear you guys talk, because all the members in my band feel the same way about my sound.

Could it be a setting that i overall missed in the Axe, and other guys that experience the same?

My 2x12 cab is loaded with V30s also but if I engage cab sims it's like throwing a blanket over it. I then need to EQ like mad to get the definition back. Must be something to do with your amp or the way you're setting up your AFX. How do you have your parameters set in the I/O menu?

Well I'm running to a MosValve power amp into a Port City OS 2 x 12 v30's with power amp sims on and cab sims usually on. I was torn between the Port City or a Verve 12ma, but it seemed they were backordered until Christmas, so here we are. I find the sound perfect through my Firepod into Event 20/20 bas monitors with all sims on of course. Through the MosValve/Port City, I find on high gain patches like Rectos it gets extremely buzzy with cab sims off and I have to eq like mad! Other patches it does indeed sound like a blanket with cab sims on and I have to eq or try a different cab sim, this seems to be key. I always ran cab sims on with the Digitech GNX3000. When comparing cab sims on and off, on most patches the sound gets louder, fuller, less buzzy, just better. My wife agrees. I liken it to the loundness switch on a home stereo. Daniel at Port City says he likes the sound better with cab sims on. There's a guy Zentman that posts here and on HCAF runs it the same way. I may get the Verve eventually. I like the kick from the cabinet though.

 

[joegold]

Stringtheorist, do you have cab sims on or off? I an finding it necessary to keep them on through my 2x12.

Definitely off. I agree with Joegold -- If you have cab sims on there must be something wrong... :|
What is it about turning off the cab sims that makes it sound 'wrong' to you?

Wow ... when i play through my marshall 6100 loop and with my vintage 30 cab i always have the powerampsim on and cabs on in the axe.
When i don,t do it it sounds very thin and no thumb..... Maybe with heavy EQ it would be better but never tryed that. With cabs and poweramp sim on it rocks btw
There MUST be something wrong if i hear you guys talk, because all the members in my band feel the same way about my sound.

Could it be a setting that i overall missed in the Axe, and other guys that experience the same?

The power amp of your Marshall 6100 may not be very neutral.

Or, as I look thru the 30th anniversary model's manual I see that it has many options for the power amp. Maybe you've not set it optimally to work with the Axe. From the looks of it it should be possible to get a very good sound out of the Axe into that power amp, not ideal IMO, but very good nonetheless.

Based on the manual here's how I'd set up the 6100 for use with the Axe:
• Make sure the loop is set to series, not parallel.
• Loop level at +4dB but the Axe would probably be fine at -10dB too.
• Full power (100 watts, all 4 power tubes operative in pentode mode). (This will allow you to obtain the most headroom. The sound of any power amp distortion you desire should be done within the Axe's power amp sims. I.e. Don't run the Marshall at low power to get power amp distortion, that is unless you also turn the Axe's power amp sim off.)
• High Damping. [Or Auto damping but I'm not sure how this is automated.] They say to use High damping for clean sounds and that's what the Axe (with power amp sims engaged) needs, i.e. a power amp that's as clean as possible. I.e. All the effects of damping and power amp distortion should be done within the Axe's power amp sims not within your monitoring system's power amp.
• Presence 0, or somewhere below 5.
• You might try using the low volume compensation when playing at low volumes, but this will colour the sound.

Your cab is a closed-back 4 X 12 cab?
Note a 4 X 12 closed back cab will always sound like a closed back 4 X 12 cab. Eg. Don't expect the Fender amp sims to sound like real Fender amps through that cab.

Try the same cab (assuming you like the way the cab normally sounds) with a hi-fi oriented power amp, like an ART SLA2, and then you'll hear what the Axe is capable of and was made to sound like through that cab. IMO

 

[joegold]

Well I'm running to a MosValve power amp into a Port City OS 2 x 12 v30's with power amp sims on and cab sims usually on. I was torn between the Port City or a Verve 12ma, but it seemed they were backordered until Christmas, so here we are. I find the sound perfect through my Firepod into Event 20/20 bas monitors with all sims on of course. Through the MosValve/Port City, I find on high gain patches like Rectos it gets extremely buzzy with cab sims off and I have to eq like mad! Other patches it does indeed sound like a blanket with cab sims on and I have to eq or try a different cab sim, this seems to be key. I always ran cab sims on with the Digitech GNX3000. When comparing cab sims on and off, on most patches the sound gets louder, fuller, less buzzy, just better. My wife agrees. I liken it to the loundness switch on a home stereo. Daniel at Port City says he likes the sound better with cab sims on. There's a guy Zentman that posts here and on HCAF runs it the same way. I may get the Verve eventually. I like the kick from the cabinet though.

Sounds to me like you're trying to compensate for the sound of your actual cab by using the cab sims.
It's likely that if the Axe's Recto amp sims sound "buzzy" through your cab, that a real Recto would sound buzzy as well. through that cab. Have you ever tried that?

Your 2 X 12 cab will always sound like a 2 X 12 cab. And as such much of the capability that the Axe has for mimicking amps with other speaker configurations will be unavailable to you when using that cab.
If that is unacceptable to you then you will need to go FRFR.
The little workarounds you are doing by using the Axe's cab sims are really not optimal.

But if you love the sound you're getting, then you love the sound, no matter what I say the "norms" are.

 

[hwav]

Well I'm running to a MosValve power amp into a Port City OS 2 x 12 v30's with power amp sims on and cab sims usually on. I was torn between the Port City or a Verve 12ma, but it seemed they were backordered until Christmas, so here we are. I find the sound perfect through my Firepod into Event 20/20 bas monitors with all sims on of course. Through the MosValve/Port City, I find on high gain patches like Rectos it gets extremely buzzy with cab sims off and I have to eq like mad! Other patches it does indeed sound like a blanket with cab sims on and I have to eq or try a different cab sim, this seems to be key. I always ran cab sims on with the Digitech GNX3000. When comparing cab sims on and off, on most patches the sound gets louder, fuller, less buzzy, just better. My wife agrees. I liken it to the loundness switch on a home stereo. Daniel at Port City says he likes the sound better with cab sims on. There's a guy Zentman that posts here and on HCAF runs it the same way. I may get the Verve eventually. I like the kick from the cabinet though.

Sounds to me like you're trying to compensate for the sound of your actual cab by using the cab sims.
It's likely that if the Axe's Recto amp sims sound "buzzy" through your cab, that a real Recto would sound buzzy as well. through that cab. Have you ever tried that?

Your 2 X 12 cab will always sound like a 2 X 12 cab. And as such much of the capability that the Axe has for mimicking amps with other speaker configurations will be unavailable to you when using that cab.
If that is unacceptable to you then you will need to go FRFR.
The little workarounds you are doing by using the Axe's cab sims are really not optimal.

But if you love the sound you're getting, then you love the sound, no matter what I say the "norms" are.

I know what you mean about a real Recto, it does sound good though. I need to see how it sits in a live mix.

 

[jerotas]

I use the ART SLA-2 to power 2 Bogner cabs. Excellent excellent sound. I've only had the Ultra 3 months, and I'm fully happy with my live sound. Direct out recording sound...well, I have settings that are good, but micing the Bogners always yields better results for me when recording. For lead guitar , I use a Cascade fathead ribbon mic on the cone and a Blue Baby Bottle 1 foot back slightly off axis. Sounds amazing!

I always use the power amp sims but never use the cab sims unless I'm doing direct out recording.

 

[merlin17]

but micing the Bogners always yields better results for me when recording. For lead guitar , I use a Cascade fathead ribbon mic on the cone and a Blue Baby Bottle 1 foot back slightly off axis. Sounds amazing!

Why don't you do an IR of that micing configuration? Load it as a User IR in the cab block and you don't need to mike the cabs anymore.

 

[dmtnt]

I used to use ADA MP-1s and even though there's no MP-1 model, I found a amp and cab combo that gives me a similar/better tone.

Hi, care to share that patch?? I'm still using MP-1's w/ my Axe-FX as I haven't found a model that quite mirrors it yet. Actually, I use a Mod4MkII most of the time.

 

[FractalAudio]

but micing the Bogners always yields better results for me when recording. For lead guitar , I use a Cascade fathead ribbon mic on the cone and a Blue Baby Bottle 1 foot back slightly off axis. Sounds amazing!

Why don't you do an IR of that micing configuration? Load it as a User IR in the cab block and you don't need to mike the cabs anymore.

+1

 

[joegold]

I used to use ADA MP-1s and even though there's no MP-1 model, I found a amp and cab combo that gives me a similar/better tone.

Hi, care to share that patch?? I'm still using MP-1's w/ my Axe-FX as I haven't found a model that quite mirrors it yet. Actually, I use a Mod4MkII most of the time.

It's no big deal, but please try to be more careful when using the quotes features of this forum, because I didn't say that stuff about the ADA. Matt_B did. (Although, I did own an MP-1 in the old days.)

 

[jerotas]

but micing the Bogners always yields better results for me when recording. For lead guitar , I use a Cascade fathead ribbon mic on the cone and a Blue Baby Bottle 1 foot back slightly off axis. Sounds amazing!

Why don't you do an IR of that micing configuration? Load it as a User IR in the cab block and you don't need to mike the cabs anymore.

Ok, I would love to do this (and share the IR with whoever wants to try it). Is there a step-by-step? I wasn't aware that I could make a single IR out of a 2-mic sound?

 

[merlin17]

Of course you can.
Or you can do them separately and mix the the two cabs afterwards in the Axe.

Send a sweep into the Axe and record the sound that comes out of the speakers as you would record your guitar. Then deconvolute the recorded file and convert it to a .syx file (with AXE-FX IR Converter) the Axe can use as an User IR. Send that file via midi to the Axe after you selected an User IR slot in the cab block where you want to store it.

For the sweep and deconvolution I use Voxengo Convolver.
Do a 10sec sweep there and record 11sec back.