Mesa Boogie Studio Preamp and Simul 295 Stereo: AC/DC Angus Young Live at Donington 1991 sound with AXE FX

TheRedDevil

TheRedDevil

Power User
Remark: After calibration of my speakers in my room I need to adapt the presets again. There is too much treble/less highcut/wrong cab settings.

Dear members,

since 30 years I work on the my favorite AC/DC Angus Young sound based on plexis. I always prefered the Live at Donington 1991 sound and learned from this forum / japanese magazine article
https://www.acdcfans.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9446&page=1#Comment_574591
that Angus and Malcom used a Mesa Boogie Studio Preamp and Mesa Boogie Simul 295 Stereo power amp for the live album (see the input cable and switch position of the amps). 1996 again plexis like today. A member of this thread was so kind and gave me the original article picture in much better quality:

Angus_Mesa_Boogie_1990_1_racks_1.JPG
Angus_Mesa_Boogie_1990_1_racks_2.JPG

I would like to ask for your knowledge and help to find the correct settings and at the end one preset, that represents the tone of Angus Youngs rack based on the Axe FX III. I'm not a Mesa expert.

For motivation: Refer to this guy who made it with SoloDallas IR of a Marshall 4x12 w/ G12M-25 speakers, two SM57 microphones as the mic selection for the IR and the real amps - Should be easy for AXE FX III, or? ;o)


I already learnd, that the "USA IIC+ (MESA/Boogie Mark IIC+)" together with the Mesa EQ seams to work at best because of the near year of manufacturing of both amp types. Mark IIC+ from Jan. 1984, Studio Preamp from Aug. 1988, Mark IV from May 1990 (too late).
https://mesaboogie.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/218914817-When-was-my-amp-made-
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...st#USA_IIC.2B_.28MESA.2FBoogie_Mark_IIC.2B.29

Today on stage he uses Greenbacks and in a special cabinet under the stage possibly the G12V speaker. From a friend of mine (working on the sound since many years) and my personal experience I'm sure, that Angus used Marshall Vintage G12V speakers in these days, which are more or less equal as Celestion Vintage 30 but with a bit more treble. I think the Mesa cabs on stage were just used by Malcom. See the position of the cabs is different on the sides of the drums (high/low).That's why I use the York Audio MV30 IRs to achive the sound
https://www.yorkaudio.co/product-page/mrsh-412-mv30-dual
I mixed it together with some Greenback IRs from YA and Solodallas. But I also used similar Fractal IRs in my preset.
Currently I select Shure 57s for the IRs, but I know that AC/DC uses Audio Technica 4047/4050 on stage today. In these day, I don't know.

For the power amp I think Angus used the Simul Class mode based on EL34 and 6L6s tubes for 4 cabinets (see labels: 2 cabs per power amp "volume knob") with 95W per (2x) channel.
https://stringedguitars.com/2021/02/17/mesa-simul-295/
https://mesa-boogie.imgix.net/media/User Manuals/Stereo Simul 295.pdf

For comparision isolated tracks can be found at YT: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Angus+ACDC+live+at+donington+isolated+track


1) Do you think the USA IIC+ is the best selection for the studio preamp?

2) Which model would you select based on the settings on the picture?

2a) USA IIC+ (MESA/Boogie Mark IIC+) - Lead Master Pull Bright off, Pull Deep off
2b) USA IIC+ BRIGHT - Lead Master Pull Bright on, Pull Deep off
2c) USA IIC+ DEEP - Lead Master Pull Bright off, Pull Deep on
2d) USA IIC+ DEEP BRIGHT - Lead Master Pull Bright on, Pull Deep on

"The main controls are Volume (pull: Bright), Treble (pull: Shift = Fat), Bass (pull: Shift), Middle, Presence, Master rhythm (pull: Deep), Lead Drive and Master Lead (pull: Bright)."
"The key to a good Boogie sound, IMO, is the Fat Switch. This is the Treble Pull Shift on the IIC+ and the Pull Fat on the Mark IV. Mesa knew this and the Lead 2 modes on the Triaxis all had the treble shift engaged by default."
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...-usa-iic-and-iic-mesa-boogie-mark-iic.115442/
IIC+ knobs example:
Bildschirmfoto vom 2023-11-02 08-50-05.png

Well, if "Treble (pull: Shift = Fat)" then 2a) with FAT switch on should be right, or? Edit: Currently I prefer the USA MK V Red amp IIC+ model based on Mark V Lead channel mode incl. FAT switch on. Bright switch on/off is a matter of taste.

3) Which amp settings can you see on the pictures and do you think I should transfer these settings 1:1 to the Axe FX III amp settings? Which AXE FX settings would you use?

Mesa Boogie Studio Preamp settings - I can see on Main amp
Input = used
Foot Switch = not used
Volume = 3
Master = 6
Treble = 6
Bass = 3
Middle = 3
Reverb = 0
Lead Drive = 7
Lead Master = 4
EQ Auto / EQ In = EQ IN
On / Standby = Standby
On / Power = On
Rhythm Bright Switch = Off
Lead Mode / Rhythm (FT Switch) = Lead Mode
Lead Fat Switch = On
Lead Bright Switch = Off
Output Level Ch A = 10?
Output Level Ch B = 10?
Labels: Upper Amp: SPARE, Lower Amp: MAIN
Bildschirmfoto vom 2023-11-02 08-29-09.png
or
Bildschirmfoto vom 2023-11-02 08-33-25.png


Mesa Boogie Simul Class 295 Stereo settings - I can see Angus Main amp
On / Power = On
On A / Standby = Standby
On B / Standby = Standby
A Level = 10
A Presence = 0
B Level = 10
B Presence = 0
Labels: Channel A for Cabs 1+2, Channel B for Cabs 3+4, Upper Amp: Angus Main Amp, Lower Amp: Angus Spare Amp

4) Which values would you use for the Mesa EQ for the Axe FX III? I think 1:1 transfer is not possible.

5) How to simulate the Simul Class EL34/6L6 mode with the IIC+?
Here you can read
" The original amp operates in Class-A (2 power tubes) or Simul-Class (2 power tubes in Class-A and the other two in Class A/B). It has been modeled in Simul-Class mode. Cliff: "If you want the sound of the non-SimulClass version set Triode 1 Plate Freq to 1350 Hz."
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...-usa-iic-and-iic-mesa-boogie-mark-iic.115442/

Well, the AXE FX IIC+ power amp is already in SimulClass Mode.

6) Are there any other settings on the backside of the amps I need to pay attention?

7) Current status of preset "ACDC by TRD v1.1 AXE3 FW27b":
Optimized for FW27b2. IN3/OUT3 for ext FREQOUT usage. Flanger for Lynyrd Skynyrd songs. Reverb as alternative for Cab/Room. Enhance for Headphone. Added Scene 2+3 for AC/DC Live at Donington '91 sound incl. TMA.
Refer to: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...-dc-angus-young-sound-with-axe-fx-iii.199932/

Remarks: I use Gibson/Rocktile/J&D SGs incl. Gibson 57 Classic or Gibson 57 Classic Plus PUs for the test, Volume (5-)8 until 10 (solo). Input 1 Level in I/O settings on 55%. Treble PU and pole piece screwes head on normal height. I/O Input 1 Gain 1. Rhythm PU a bit outsite the frame/pickguard, not too much, it influences the treble sound. I play on bedroom volume level. Don't forget your cable: I use Sommer Cable SC Spirit LLX with 1M Input 1 Impedance (together that is bright), but also try 230K to reduce brightness!
My rig: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/post-your-axe-fx-iii-rigs-here.136754/post-2475487
 

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Sadly I can’t help you but the AC/DC live at Donnington is my favorite AC/DC Sound!
Can’t wait to try your preset, thank you.
 
Wow, is it cool and crazy🤘 I need every help! Thank you very much.

Compared with my design - like a US 50s Chevy vs. German VW Kaefer :smile:
IMG_20231025_123223-2.jpg
 
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3+4.) there’s so many parts deviation / manufacturing tolerances to account for in an amplifier that 12 o’clock on a knob on the real amp will not sound like 12 o’clock on a knob on the modelled amplifier (unless the modelled amplifier is based on the amp itself)

You just have to trust your ears
 
Yeah, that's one of the lesser talked about advantages of the axefx. Amps change with the weather. By the way, in the photo, and underneath the 295, you can see a little corner of paper. That's the sheet that Boogie included in the Preamp documents, telling you precisely how to adjust the controls for "fusion, rock, blues, country, etc", lol. A completely dopey idea.

Later today, I'll load up your preset.
 
Thank you but take your time. It's just the basis for optimization/discussion but I liked it directly.
I just tweaked it a bit in amp channel B and I still like the YA/Solodallas IRs a bit more. But the best Fractal IR / Dyna Cab setting can still be found.
The issue today, we all have different "FRFR" speakers and all sound different. I tried to EQ my two different speakers that they sound like my studio monitors. That's already difficult. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/celestion-f12-x200-vs-f12m-150.190304/ But this is another topic.
A 80% solution would be enough from my point of view.
 
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TheRedDevil said:
And I think I can't trust my ears ... :smile: ... Next morning it often sounds different. That's why I need your ears too. All together we can make it.
Click to expand...
We’re all mostly on the same boat haha

As for a good fix for that problem…

Periodic listening breaks

making sure your listening environment is exactly the same
(no moving furniture, no added/taken away furniture) small items are okay

along with the same exact listening position,

will for the most part fix those problems

Here’s a relevant link to add to what I said earlier

Thread 'Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp'
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/why-your-amp-doesnt-sound-like-our-amp.172907/
 
Currently I'm really happy with preset v0.2. I just needed to reduce cab 2 level to -0.45dB to get a bit more bass. I do not touch the amp settings. Current cabs here.

I used no LowPass for 12" F12X200 FRFR speakers in GEQ @75Hz but
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I use a LowPass for 12" F12M150 FRFR speakers in GEQ @75Hz
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No EQ for the studio monitors as reference.

Reducing the Reverb time to 0.90Sec could also be a good idea.

Refer to v0.3.

This EQ is just useful for low "bedroom" volume. If I raise the volume up, I need to reduce the high end frequency curve. But without the EQ it is not useful.

Edit: Current GEQ used refer my signature.
 
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Weather, sinus congestion, caffiene intake - way too many variables affect how we hear. If it sounds “off tomorrow” play through the perception.
 
I had the luck and met AC/DC after my first concert when I was a teen in the 90s. I just asked Angus about his SG. Ahhh .... Since I was 12 and I heard Powerage I'm a fan and Donington on a black/white-colored copied VHS video cassette and first CD was may favorite album until today. I still watch the video but on BluRay not VHS video :smiley:
 
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v0.4 2023-11-02: Added cab 3 for a fuller sound (Channel A)
v0.5 2023-11-03: Added cab channel for a fuller sound (Channel C). Still like alternative YA/Solodallas IRs but just a little bit more (Channel B)

I jammed until now, great, what a fun - thank you Cliff ... good night ;O)
 
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v0.6 2023-11-04: Added cab (Channel D) based on Fractal and Solodallas IRs. Sounds a bit more like the newer studio recordings. More I/O Input Gain could be necessary to get the live sound (e.g. 1.250).
v0.7 2023-11-04: Replaced some SM57 with AT4047 in Channel B & D.

I think, the amp settings are good enough, that the rest can be done based on IR selection.

The more and more I compare the recordings with the AXE FX sound, I wished Angus had used the AXE FX already in the 90s: The sound is much better and clearer - not wonder if you think about, how he needed to work in the good old days (mic in front of cab).

In addition: If you select Rhythm instead Treble PU with volume 5, it sound's like B.B. King. I often hear this similarity. The IRs selection needs the groove of Blues.

Attached you can find an overview of all IRs used.
 
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900 views but no feedback about the preset - is it so bad and you just want to be friendly or so good, that you don't have any recommendations? Is my partly Non-Fractal IR selection the issue or the topic just much time consuming? ;)
 
v0.8 2023-11-06 I added additional Cab 1 Channel A with additional Fractal IR with more low end, independent of the recording. Try to disable reverb, too.
v0.9 2023-11-06 I added additional Cab 1 Channel B with additional Fractal IR with more low end, independent of the recording. Try to disable reverb, too.

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