Matching levels of clean tones

[joegold]

In the attached .zip file you'll find 2 sysex files of 2 of my Axe Presets.

StratJazz is a Preset I intend to use to play straight-ahead jazz on my Strat. [I like a very dark tone btw.]

StratRnB is a Preset I use to play bright clean pop music with on my Strat.

When you play through these presets you'll notice that RnB preset is much louder.
I'd boost the Level of the Jazz preset, but it's already as loud as it can get without clipping the Output LEDs.

Why does the Jazz preset clip at a much quieter volume than the RnB preset?
Is there anything I can do to get the Jazz preset louder without clipping the DA converter?

Notes:
• You may have to Bypass the Volume Block in both Presets in order to hear anything.
• The FXL Block is there because I've been using an external tuner. Feel free to set it to Bypass.
• These Presets were tweaked for a SS power amp into a guitar cab (EVM-12L, open-back) but should sound fine through an FRFR system too. If using a guitar cab please defeat the Cab Block.
• Feel free to Bypass or Un-Bypass any of the other Blocks except the Amp Block (and the Cab Block if you're listening via FRFR). It should not affect my clipping problem.

To anybody who takes the time to do this. thanks.

 

[javajunkie]

I would imagine it the +3 @ 63db, +6 @ 135, +9 db at 250 on the GEQ. That is a lot of low-end energy compared to the other. You also have the compressor after the GEQ so it is going to react different than the other patch. I would try moving the GEQ after the compressor and see if that helps.

 

[joegold]

I would imagine it the +3 @ 63db, +6 @ 135, +9 db at 250 on the GEQ. That is a lot of low-end energy compared to the other. You also have the compressor after the GEQ so it is going to react different than the other patch. I would try moving the GEQ after the compressor and see if that helps.

The GEQ is bypassed, or should be.
That's just an experiment in progress.

Thanks for looking though.

 

[javajunkie]

I would imagine it the +3 @ 63db, +6 @ 135, +9 db at 250 on the GEQ. That is a lot of low-end energy compared to the other. You also have the compressor after the GEQ so it is going to react different than the other patch. I would try moving the GEQ after the compressor and see if that helps.

The GEQ is bypassed, or should be.
That's just an experiment in progress.

Thanks for looking though.

Question, why not just cut the level of the other patch? Make up the volume with your SS amp.

What you could do to keep it from clipping is to add a compressor at the end. If you can use a sidechain and just have it trigger on the lows (probably what's causing the clipping). But it would just be easier to turn the other down IMO.

 

[joegold]

Question, why not just cut the level of the other patch? Make up the volume with your SS amp.

I could do that.
But right now using an SLA1 in bridged mono mode that Jazz Preset is just at the brink of not being loud enough for some gigs with some drummers.
.....

Well I just cranked it, and it's pretty f...ing loud.
I guess that this is mostly residual paranoia from past rigs where i could never get my dark jazz tone loud enough without clipping something somewhere.

Still. I don't really understand why the Jazz Preset should clip at such a quieter level compared to the RnB Preset. And I'd like to understand it.

What you could do to keep it from clipping is to add a compressor at the end. If you can use a sidechain and just have it trigger on the lows (probably what's causing the clipping). But it would just be easier to turn the other down IMO.

That's a little too complex and high-tech for me java. Maybe one day I'll mess with that stuff.
I like to keep things as simple as possible, especially with my clean tones, because I know I'll have to tweak them quickly when I get on stage.
Things don't sound the same in my house as they do on gigs. And I'm not getting enough gigs these days to tweak everything to sound consistently good from gig to gig.

 

[javajunkie]

Like I said, I'd keep that one simple too. It probably has to do with frequency content and pickup selection. I imagine if you brightened up the jazz patch (which you probably wouldn't wan't to do), it would sound as lound as the RnB one. I have'nt had a chance to load those though.

 

[joegold]

I imagine if you brightened up the jazz patch (which you probably wouldn't wan't to do), it would sound as loud as the RnB one.

Right on both counts.
Brighter clean tones can be made louder without clipping compared to darker clean tones.
Why is that?
(And I don't want to brighten up that Preset. It still seems bright to me, depending how fresh my ears are.)

Then again...
The way I check for digital output clipping is the same way I check for analog input clipping.
I.e. I put my guitar on the bridge pickup with the vol and tone pots cranked, and whack all 6 strings as hard as I can. If the red clip led lights I back off on the Amp Block's Level parameter (or the Mixer Block's Level).
But if I did that with the neck pickup, the pickup I'm actually going to use to play this Preset with, I could get the Level up quite a bit more before it clips, especially if I also roll the guitar's tone pot back where it will be.
So I'm sort of nitpicking here...But still...I'd like to understand why this happens.

I used to encounter similar problems with my Triaxis and other real-world amps too, both tube and ss.
Namely...In setting up a dark clean sound on the Triaxis with the tone and drive controls, you end up with a lower general level than you need to drive your power amp at your regular settings for the preamp's Master level control. So you try to make up for it by cranking the preamp's master as well as the power amp's master and then another area of the circuit begins to break up. It's like a Catch-22 built into jazz guitar amplification.

Just generally...
Why is it so hard to get dark clean tones to play as loud as bright clean tones?
This has nothing to do with the Axe.
But I might have hoped that the technology of the Axe could have transcended this particular pitfall of real-world amps.

 

[javajunkie]

Clipping uses absolute output level.

Our ears use perceived loudness. Often times they are not the same.

Think about it you can create a signal out of human hearing range that will clip a signal but you won't hear it all.

 

[joegold]

Clipping uses absolute output level.

Our ears use perceived loudness. Often times they are not the same.

Think about it you can create a signal out of human hearing range that will clip a signal but you won't hear it all.

Yeah. But that would be in the range *above* human hearing.

But I do understand that bass frequencies require mire power to be amplified than high frequencies need.

I should try plugging a bass into the Axe sometime and see what I see.

Thanks again.

So...I guess there is no way to get that preset louder then, right?

 

[Brian G]

The greatest headroom in any audio signal chain is always required by clean, uncompressed material with a wide dynamic range. Driven signals tend to compress to varying degrees without you really being aware of it (even if they still sound relatively clean).

Also, the lower the frequency the more power it takes to reproduce for a given output level, and this is also true of headroom within the system (I can't say it's necessarily true with the Axe-FX's internal input & output decoding, but good chance it is). So if the spectral balance of the Jazz tone contains more energy in the lower frequencies compared to the other tone, and it's played clean with wide dynamics, i.e. lots of expression in pick attack, it stands to reason that it could clip something before the R&B patch, especially if the R&B patch uses compression. Even though it sounds louder perceptually, it won't demand as much headroom from the system.

Sorry if this is a bit dry, it just is what it is.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Just generally...
Why is it so hard to get dark clean tones to play as loud as bright clean tones?

Because of the higher sensitivity of human hearing to sounds in the frequency range that make a guitar sound "bright," i.e., 2kHz and up.

This has nothing to do with the Axe.

Nor much of anything with amplification in general. It is because perceived loudness in the "bright" frequency range is much greater for a given actual SPL than it is in the "dark" range.

 

[joegold]

Just generally...
Why is it so hard to get dark clean tones to play as loud as bright clean tones?

Because of the higher sensitivity of human hearing to sounds in the frequency range that make a guitar sound "bright," i.e., 2kHz and up.

Ah. Makes sense. Thanks.

So, I guess Pat Martino, with his really dark yet kickin' sound, is actually way louder than most metal guys!

 

[Jay Mitchell]

So, I guess Pat Martino, with his really dark yet kickin' sound, is actually way louder than most metal guys!

I heard him when he was touring behind the "Joyous Lake" album in 1976, and he played really loud in that show. He had a huge rig consisting of a closed 4x12 cab with JBLs, a large power amp, and a rack of effects, and he played a Gibson L5S solidbody. His sound was essentially identical to what he had been producing on his earlier straight-ahead recordings - very clean and dark - but at a very high volume.

I believe these days he usually plays rented Twins when he travels. A complaint I have heard from folks who have heard him recently is that his sound is too muddy and distorted. There are sessions that Howard Roberts did in which there was audible distortion from pushing the amp's lows too hard.

A major problem in getting a warm jazz tone is caused by using open-backed cabs, which cancel most of the low frequency energy because of the out-of-polarity back wave. If you want clean, dark sounds, a closed cab will take much less power at low frequencies, because you're not having to boost bass frequencies in a (largely futile) attempt to overcome cancellation.

 

[joegold]

The last time I saw PM, in Toronto, he was using an Acoustic Image Clarus amp head. I think he still endorses the AI stuff too.
I think he was using rented cabinets, big ones for a jazz guy. But this band, with Joey Defrancesco, wasn't as loud as some of his fusion outings of the past.
In the late 60s and early 70s he did have a fair bit of grit to his sound. But he's pretty clean these days as far as I can tell.

I am aware of the benefits of using closed-back cabs for jazz, but there are also significant problems.
1. The other guys in the band can have a real hard time hearing you unless you set up very carefully, use several cabinets, or put some guitar in the monitors (assuming there are monitors).
*I* absolutely hate the sound of guitar in the monitors and i hate playing situations where that is necessary.

2. The bottom-end of a closed-back cab can get out-of-hand, especially if the cab is on the floor, especially if the music gets loud too.

I bought a Raezer's Edge T8 cabinet (along with a Clarus 1r) a few years ago and swore by it for jazz for a little while. But the complaints of drummers not hearing me on gigs and the sound it produced when elevated made it lose its bloom for me. It sounded absolutely fantastic at home though.
The T8 is also a 1-trick pony in that the dark jazz sound is *all* it can do. Ditto for the Clarus amps.

Plus I don't like the sound of closed-back cabs for R & B or classic rock.
And that's why I still use open=back cabs.