Low String THUMP!

dkenin

dkenin

Inspired
Quick Question...

I've noticed in situations where I have thwacked the lower strings while being muted by my fretting hand, and I the red lights coming on for the output "overload". For example if I just hold my hand over the strings at the 4th fret and just tap (literally, not in an Eddie Van Halen sense) lower strings (E and A) higher up on the fret board around the 15th fret I always get the red output lights.

Playing the note, open string or fretted there is no problem, it's only occurring when I pat the strings while muted. I've noticed this live as well playing out through my Atomic CLR it has muddy THUMP to it.

So my question is what can I do to alleviate this problem? I am using the Mark Boogie Model and have the the first band of the 5 band EQ at -1.5. I have the bass cut, and it's already at 3/10. I can make the problem go away if I lower the first and second bands of the Mark EQ down to -5.0 but I really like the way the pick attack is throaty with more bass. The only other information I can give is that I play with a lot of mids, FAT switch on and Frowning EQ on the 5 band EQ

I tried lowering dynamic depth, nothing happens. I have a 808 in front to "tighten up the bottom end", but's not even muddy, it's more of an artifact of the preset and I don't know where it's coming from. It's almost like a compressor is pushing the slightest thump to sound extremely loud. (as if you were playing with a very compressed clean guitar and you want to get your "thwacking" into your playing).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Dave
 
I have to go with funky's thought - sounds like a string (or pick/finger) hitting a pole piece from your description. Is there a piezo in the guitar?
Since it's across multiple instruments, I'm leaning towards a technique "issue" causing the same "symptom"
 
I just noticed - you said you're getting output overload, but not input? What does the input signal look like?
 
selta said:
I just noticed - you said you're getting output overload, but not input? What does the input signal look like?
Click to expand...

If you palm mute hard on a bassy amp you can clip the output without clipping the input. I think the clip produced by a certain frequency jump.
It will be easier to guess the cause of the problem if we can see the playing moment while hearing the thump.
 
Boogies are known for that, look at some of Clark Kents sound cloud tracks(you can see it) try turning the amp output down to get some more head room. or eq it out, try multi band compressor.
 
Im a Mesa player in the non virtual domain and have never had flubby bass problems, although i do use strats. it could be related to the channel (ie LD1 green etc), but i would be tempted to lower the p/up as this could even be 'fret crash' where the string is pulled downwards due to the magnetic field of the coils. ive had this problem as my strats are 7.25 radius with staggered poles. its worth eliminating this from the equation for the sake of a few minutes with the screw driver.

Also if your action is very low this will exacerbate the problem. The XL virtual knobs do not relate directly to the real Mesa amp, so you may have to play around with the dynamics filters and bass levels. On my Triaxis it is possible to get indistinct farting bass if it's Dynamic Voice parameters or Bass parameters are too high. The Dynamic Voice on the real Mesa is a sophisticated EQ circuit that also alters the settings of the Bass Mid and Treble controls, so im assuming the Axe Fx copies this in a similar way (Cliff?)...

Im a noob with the Axe FX so the experts on here will offer more comprehensive advice than me on that one, but i would certainly look into your technique, p/up height, and eq settings.

:Note i downloaded a preset from Axe Exchange yesterday that had incredibly flubby bass and it even overloaded the outputs but i just rolled it WAY down and it cleared up enormously.
:encouragement:
 
Just to be safe, let me ask: is it a low-mid problem?
Cutting out all that bass won't help if the peak you're experiencing is at 600hz or roundabout.
It's worth a look: use a frequency analyzer in your DAW to find the peak problem, or sweep around with the filter block.
 
It's weird on VU I have it at 4db only bc that's my boost everything else I have at 0db. Then I tap and it thumps into the red


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You might have a grounding problem on your guitar. Disable the noise gate and try the same experiment.
 
My 2 cents is that your amp level is just too high.

Some amps/cabs are more dynamic than others and can produce a wide range of output even in hi-gain patches (my experience with the Mesa models is like yours in that palm muting the low strings really booms the output). To ensure no clipping I tend adjust amp level as high as possible but such that I can really thump hard all over the guitar with no output clipping, then adjust monitors/power amp to bring the real volume level to what I want. This needs to be done for all modes of the patch (lead, rhythm ...) and for all planned fx combinations. The Axe can handle a wide dynamic range without clipping and still put out a good strong signal to output 1 with the output knob at noon - no need to have internal levels boosted too high. I'm often perplexed that many of the patches I download from the axechange are waaay too hot on output when I load them.

Output clipping tends to sound really bad to me, but input clipping not so much, so, to test input, I thump all over the guitar neck and adjust input level so that I see red on my hardest strums (unlike output level where I don't want to see any red at any time).

Now if it's that you don't like the sound of the boomyness then thats another matter: you can try cutting the lows, or compression, or the pick attack parameter to dial it out of the lead part of the palm muted notes.

For patches with FRFR signal to monitors and "non-cabbed" signal to real cabs that I want levelled between output 1 (routing with cab) and output 2 (routing without cab):
- I turn off the cab and effects and set amp level + test as described above without going over 0 on vu meter's out 1/2 (note how un-dynamic the levels appear with the cab disabled). Out1 and 2 signals should be equal.
- Now turn on the cab with the routing to output 1, and, for most cab models, the output will get quite a bit louder and the signal will be much more dynamic. At this point I lower the cab volume to bring the output 1 signal back into line with output 2 (though never exactly since the two signals are quite different dynamically with the cab model present in output 1). As above the the idea is to get levels as high as possible but with no output clipping no matter how hard the strums are.

You may also want to use your guitar that has the strongest pickups to set levels so that changing guitars does not suddenly cause output clipping. "Exception" guitars with unusually hi or low outputs may need their own patches.

In order to re-level across patches, I use one that I've levelled carefully as a benchmark. I level each subsequent patch as above, then compare it by ear in all modes to the benchmark one in order to give me a fairly even level over all my active patches.

It took me a while to appreciate why some dread re-leveling their patches after a major update. It was only when I got to a process which allowed me to level presets to my satisfaction that the lightbulb went on cause, at least for me, the way I'm doing it, is quite labor intensive. There are likely faster ways. Lucky I'm in no rush these days.
 
1. Cut lows on your cab block.
2. Increase low cut on your amp block (dynamics? other?) It's there.

Fine line here. Or use a different IR that is less low end dominant.
 
sprint said:
My 2 cents is that your amp level is just too high.
- I turn off the cab and effects and set amp level + test as described above without going over 0 on vu meter's out 1/2 (note how un-dynamic the levels appear with the cab disabled). Out1 and 2 signals should be equal.
- Now turn on the cab with the routing to output 1, and, for most cab models, the output will get quite a bit louder and the signal will be much more dynamic. At this point I lower the cab volume to bring the output 1 signal back into line with output 2.
Click to expand...

I agree...
I have learned too much from CHRIS's video about setting levels.
If i have to lower the volume after adding the cab, i prefer turning back to amp block and lower the level to a noncliping amount. It's ok to see -20db on a high gain amp block i think. So don't think the output levels should be high.

Instead of lowering every block, just use the amp block's output level fot the overall preset's level and check the final situation on the VU meters.

Correct me if i'm wrong but that's what i have learned.
 
sprint said:
My 2 cents is that your amp level is just too high.

Some amps/cabs are more dynamic than others and can produce a wide range of output even in hi-gain patches (my experience with the Mesa models is like yours in that palm muting the low strings really booms the output). To ensure no clipping I tend adjust amp level as high as possible but such that I can really thump hard all over the guitar with no output clipping, then adjust monitors/power amp to bring the real volume level to what I want. This needs to be done for all modes of the patch (lead, rhythm ...) and for all planned fx combinations. The Axe can handle a wide dynamic range without clipping and still put out a good strong signal to output 1 with the output knob at noon - no need to have internal levels boosted too high. I'm often perplexed that many of the patches I download from the axechange are waaay too hot on output when I load them.

Output clipping tends to sound really bad to me, but input clipping not so much, so, to test input, I thump all over the guitar neck and adjust input level so that I see red on my hardest strums (unlike output level where I don't want to see any red at any time).

Now if it's that you don't like the sound of the boomyness then thats another matter: you can try cutting the lows, or compression, or the pick attack parameter to dial it out of the lead part of the palm muted notes.

For patches with FRFR signal to monitors and "non-cabbed" signal to real cabs that I want levelled between output 1 (routing with cab) and output 2 (routing without cab):
- I turn off the cab and effects and set amp level + test as described above without going over 0 on vu meter's out 1/2 (note how un-dynamic the levels appear with the cab disabled). Out1 and 2 signals should be equal.
- Now turn on the cab with the routing to output 1, and, for most cab models, the output will get quite a bit louder and the signal will be much more dynamic. At this point I lower the cab volume to bring the output 1 signal back into line with output 2 (though never exactly since the two signals are quite different dynamically with the cab model present in output 1). As above the the idea is to get levels as high as possible but with no output clipping no matter how hard the strums are.

You may also want to use your guitar that has the strongest pickups to set levels so that changing guitars does not suddenly cause output clipping. "Exception" guitars with unusually hi or low outputs may need their own patches.

In order to re-level across patches, I use one that I've levelled carefully as a benchmark. I level each subsequent patch as above, then compare it by ear in all modes to the benchmark one in order to give me a fairly even level over all my active patches.

It took me a while to appreciate why some dread re-leveling their patches after a major update. It was only when I got to a process which allowed me to level presets to my satisfaction that the lightbulb went on cause, at least for me, the way I'm doing it, is quite labor intensive. There are likely faster ways. Lucky I'm in no rush these days.
Click to expand...

Okay so basically just lower the overall volume of the patches across the board and jack it up using the output volume knob on the front? I like the way the bottom sounds for leads and pick attack so I don't want to dink around with it. I can do this! Where should I do the cutting of volume in the amp block or at the end at the output block. I run two outputs on through the output and one through the FX block for my monitoring so I'd need to cut back the volume on both blocks if I went that route.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom