LOUDEST FRFR

WHAT?

Just kidding... yeah that would suck for sure.
~ss

As an audiologist I hear that joke from patients about 15x a day, and everyone thinks they are the first to make it.... Sadly I fall for it about half the time lol. The other half are actually asking "what" as they have serious hearing loss.
 
As an audiologist I hear that joke from patients about 15x a day, and everyone thinks they are the first to make it.... Sadly I fall for it about half the time lol. The other half are actually asking "what" as they have serious hearing loss.

#threadhijack

As an audiologist, do you feel that IEMs are doing damage when used on small stages with rock bands?
The rational being: if the band is 120db, and the IEMs (acting at first as ear plugs) will cut the sound down (let's say) 25db....so you're at 95db from the stage volume.
So now you bring in your instruments into your IEMs, which have to be 95db+ just to be heard over the stage noise.
So you now you have 95db directly in your ear canal. Is that potentially doing more damage that just being on a loud stage (at 120db)?
 
Noise damage (which isn't going to equal for everyone as there are things like genetics etc which can also influence things, so what is "safe" for one person might result in damage to another) is basically a product of time and intensity. 140 dB for a brief second, such as a gunshot as close range, certainly can cause damage, as can say 85dB for 8 hours, or 88 dB for 4 hours, 91 dB for 2 hours etc. Essentially doubling the dB (which is a log scale) halves the safe exposure time.

95dB from the IEM's is running them pretty hot, but per that as an example, it would still be likely "less bad" wearing those for a one hour set, than spending one hour in front of an amp at 120 dB (which is quite bad). Thing is though, that one might not stand in front of the amp for the full hour, so if your off side stage a bit, maybe your only getting 90dB there, while the IEM's are potentially going to deliver 95 dB near the whole time.... gets to be some complicated math.

Realistically though, no one needs to be running 120 dB in most venues, its going to blend into vocal mics, blast audience members too close to the stage etc. Really the point of IEM's is that you can turn the stage volume down, as people don't need to turn up to "be heard", and still hear yourself anywhere on stage, at a volume that is loud and clear, but ideally 88 dB or so less, just to stay in the "safe" range.

To further compound things, IEM's, or custom shell hearing aids for that matter, really don't attenuate sound very well. They really don't provide much of an ear plug/hearing protection effect on their own. No where near 25 dB attenuation, and its going to vary on the frequency as well. If one guy runs IEM's and the rest of the band has loud amps, loud wedges etc, its a difficult situation.

Overall though, as I've worked with lots of guys making impressions, and also have engineered, as well as being a musicians myself, I find that once groups go IEM, the overall stage volumes go down, they get a very good clear signal, assuming you've got some nice multi-driver IEM's (not cheap) and singers, guitarist etc are amazing at how well they can hear themselves, and whatever other mix they want, without needing a ton of volume, which is usually used as a crutch for lack of clarity in hearing oneself.

IEM's are great though overall, and when used properly, along with a quieter stage, certainly can help conserve musician's hearing, while often providing even better performances
 
Thanks for the insight.
The one thing I always struggle with (in regards to stage volume) is Drums.
Small stage, and I'm in the center (vocals and guitar), I have cymbals bashing in my ear all night. IEMs don't seem to help the drummer from beating the crap out of his kit (even when I turn his drums up load in HIS IEMs).

My current method is that I wear ear plugs (Flents Brand - Quiet Please).
They're just foam, but the density works well for what I want to hear (I've tried tons of different plugs)
I get plenty of my head voice (so I can sing in key-ish), and I still can hear the band.
I also run a monitor in front of me so that I can hear my guitar (that is my only guitar source on stage) and I have my vocals in there as well.
At points in the night I will pull out the plugs to sing a song or two with no plugs. But overall, I'm always more comfortable with plugs in.
I also own IEMs, but need a new set of buds because the post broke on one of them.
I'm always debating with myself if I'm just better off keeping the ear plug route, or if IEMs are no less damaging, so why not use those (and possibly sing better).

Anyway, thanks for indulging the question.
 
So you now you have 95db directly in your ear canal. Is that potentially doing more damage that just being on a loud stage (at 120db)?
Depends on where the 120 dB was measured. If it's 120 dB at your mic, then it's 120 dB in your ear, which is way nastier than 95 dB.
 
Thanks for the insight.
The one thing I always struggle with (in regards to stage volume) is Drums.
Small stage, and I'm in the center (vocals and guitar), I have cymbals bashing in my ear all night. IEMs don't seem to help the drummer from beating the crap out of his kit (even when I turn his drums up load in HIS IEMs).

My current method is that I wear ear plugs (Flents Brand - Quiet Please).
They're just foam, but the density works well for what I want to hear (I've tried tons of different plugs)
I get plenty of my head voice (so I can sing in key-ish), and I still can hear the band.
I also run a monitor in front of me so that I can hear my guitar (that is my only guitar source on stage) and I have my vocals in there as well.
At points in the night I will pull out the plugs to sing a song or two with no plugs. But overall, I'm always more comfortable with plugs in.
I also own IEMs, but need a new set of buds because the post broke on one of them.
I'm always debating with myself if I'm just better off keeping the ear plug route, or if IEMs are no less damaging, so why not use those (and possibly sing better).

Anyway, thanks for indulging the question.


Custom ear plugs might be an option for you, companies such as Westone, which make some pretty good IEM's, offer them. Basically they are a custom shaped silicon-ish (depending on color choices you want etc) material that has one of a few choices of selectable tuned filters in them, varying the degree of attenuation, while trying to preserve a fairly natural frequency response across the range. I think they provide up to like 15 or 18 dB attenuation, but because custom molded to your ear, they are a bit more comfortable and have less of a muffled sound that typical ear plugs. Probably like $75-100 for a pair

When I was in grad school, a lot of the students from the conservatory of music, and the marching band, would come by and get fit for a pair. I think the dept. might of covered the cost for them..... Anyways, they all seemed pretty pleased with them for helping tame the volume a bit, preserving their hearing and still letting them hear their performances.

Might be worth checking out
 
Custom ear plugs might be an option for you, companies such as Westone, which make some pretty good IEM's, offer them. Basically they are a custom shaped silicon-ish (depending on color choices you want etc) material that has one of a few choices of selectable tuned filters in them, varying the degree of attenuation, while trying to preserve a fairly natural frequency response across the range. I think they provide up to like 15 or 18 dB attenuation, but because custom molded to your ear, they are a bit more comfortable and have less of a muffled sound that typical ear plugs. Probably like $75-100 for a pair

When I was in grad school, a lot of the students from the conservatory of music, and the marching band, would come by and get fit for a pair. I think the dept. might of covered the cost for them..... Anyways, they all seemed pretty pleased with them for helping tame the volume a bit, preserving their hearing and still letting them hear their performances.

Might be worth checking out

I actually have a pair of molded westone ear plugs. I don't love them.
I like the fact that the foam plugs (and foam IEMs) allow me to hear some of my head voice.
The Westones don't do that. They just give me a lower version of the stage mix.
It's hard to explain, but once you get used to hearing your head voice by using foam plugs, it's hard not to have it. I feel like it helps me sing in key better (rather than having my vocal wedge be my only way to hear myself (and having to crank my wedge to fight over the cymbals...if I use the Westones)
So for me it's either foam plugs or IEMs with the foam buds. This means for IEMs I only need my guitar and a little bit of my vocals.
I should probably experiment more with my IEMs.
 
An update, I played a show with a Pop Rock band this past weekend and the Friedman ASC was plenty loud with the drummer and band. If I had to compare it to an amp I would say with the way I had it set it's comparable to a 15-30 watt combo but more to the 15watt side. The other guitarist was using a Blues Jr and he was keeping up with me and I had my volume on 7.5 and AX8 outputs at 50% which was loud but not "holy crap" that's loud.

I'm still going to try the DXR10 and others because later down the road I may need something louder and also just to make sure I have the best sound I can get! Once again it sounded great, was loud and it's an AWESOME choice for sure. I also got lot's of compliments from other players and the sound guys loved me haha!

Great input so far thanks!
 
Hey, my first post. I'm a neurotologist (I expect only the audiologist will know what that is) and my observation is that very rarely do even the loudest bands get to 110 dB stage volume, peak. If you are at 120 dB, your audience will be standing outside the venue.
 
Hey, my first post. I'm a neurotologist (I expect only the audiologist will know what that is) and my observation is that very rarely do even the loudest bands get to 110 dB stage volume, peak. If you are at 120 dB, your audience will be standing outside the venue.

So let's say it's 110 dB of stage.
From your research, is wearing IEMs (that seal on your ear), and then have sound pressure that close to your ear, better or worse than just dealing with stage volume.
 
So let's say it's 110 dB of stage.
From your research, is wearing IEMs (that seal on your ear), and then have sound pressure that close to your ear, better or worse than just dealing with stage volume.
IEMs are better in that regard...if you keep them to a reasonable level. If you don't, they're just as bad, or worse.
 
Most people find concert levels of around 93 dBA loud enough without discomfort. Most IEM's will attenuate at least 20dB putting you in that range. There are cheap apps for your phone that can do ballpark dB metering. If you are concerned about hearing conservation, start playing with that app when you are in loud situations. Then you can find OSHA tables which tell you how long you can be exposed to those sound levels safely (sorry, only my second post so I can't add links per the admin). In other words, hearing damage occurs as "dosage" over time. Once you know your dosage, you can solve for x. Didn't that math teacher tell you you'd need algebra some day? j/k
 
I say yet again: Meyer MJF 212. Even better: get two!

(But be prepared to sell a kidney or two...)
 
There's a lot that's different between a 4x12 and a full-range monitor. ;). But volume needn't be one of them. A single 12" speaker with four times the throw of a guitar speaker can move just as much air as 4 guitar speakers. But yes, there are other differences.

And all that without the comb filtering!
 
I got curious, apparently this is how loud drums get according to Modern Drummer magazine's measurements:

At drummer ears:
21" ride = 102 db
21" ride (bell) = 112 db
Bass drum = 105 db
Toms = 110 db
Snare 5x14 single roll all rimshot 120 db
Snare (maximum rimshot) 125 db
16" crash = 111 db
14" hats (maximum/open) = 117 db
18" china (maximum) 118 db

Quiet groove: drummer ears 105 db - 5 feet 100 db - 25 feet 96 db
medium groove: drummer ears 110 db - 5 feet 105 db - 25 feet 102 db
Solid groove: drummer ears 115 db - 5 feet 110 db - 25 feet 108 db
Maximum (snare): drummer ears 125 db - 5 feet 120 db - 25 feet 116 db

So it can get pretty loud...
I have worse hearing in my right ear, pretty sure it's from a few years of having played drums in bands, and being on stage right, looking to my left :frowning:
 
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I say yet again: Meyer MJF 212. Even better: get two!

(But be prepared to sell a kidney or two...)
Who needs this monster?!

So let's say it's 110 dB of stage.
From your research, is wearing IEMs (that seal on your ear), and then have sound pressure that close to your ear, better or worse than just dealing with stage volume.
My understanding is that if the SPL is the same at your ear, the damage should be the same whether it's from stage volume or IEM.

Perhaps look into triple-flange tips with a universal IEM, like Etymotic ER4. It's rated to ~40 dB isolation, much higher than any custom IEM of ~20 dB. Or even good foam tips. Common misconception that "online buyers guides" give is that CIEM will isolate better, but they really don't. Something about material properties and acrylic, makes sense once you realize CIEMs are relatively light solid piece of plastic you shove in your ear, compared to absorptive materials like foam or air barriers like triple flange. Bring the stage volume down from 110 -> 70, should give you quite a bit of room for your mix now.
 
Who needs this monster?!


My understanding is that if the SPL is the same at your ear, the damage should be the same whether it's from stage volume or IEM.

Perhaps look into triple-flange tips with a universal IEM, like Etymotic ER4. It's rated to ~40 dB isolation, much higher than any custom IEM of ~20 dB. Or even good foam tips. Common misconception that "online buyers guides" give is that CIEM will isolate better, but they really don't. Something about material properties and acrylic, makes sense once you realize CIEMs are relatively light solid piece of plastic you shove in your ear, compared to absorptive materials like foam or air barriers like triple flange. Bring the stage volume down from 110 -> 70, should give you quite a bit of room for your mix now.

Makes sense. I have custom molded ear plugs, but I like foam better (as I can hear that they are giving me better protection).
Will look at the triple flange, that sounds like a great option if it reduces ~40db.
Thanks!
 
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