Live

M

MikeDV

Inspired
OK, I keep hammering this thing to work for me. I'd like to hear what some other folks do playing in front of people. At bedroom volume, with a ss 50 watt amp, it sounds awesome. However, so do many of the competitors. It's while cranked that the magic fades a bit. I'm into the VHT 2902 and any of a variety of cabs. I can definitely get some cool sounds at volume. What I can't get yet is three basic, "just right" sounds - like I get with my favorite head/cab/fx combination - clean/breakup/guitar god - with an infinity in between using guitar volume knob, and a volume pedal. It's possible to mimic many other player's sounds, but struggling to lock into my own, the way I've done it before (could be the prob). Maybe I need to to a shift in my outlook. With the old setup, I've got my effects going through the fx loop, and change channels via the footswitch for the head - three good sounds, fx added for song needs, and feel.

How do ya'll that play live do it? Most folks here seem to be recording, or playing in their home studios - looking for feedback from those in bands. Separate patches, with different amp models (or variations on a single amp model), and fx configurations, or, with DRV modules in your grid, making a two-channel setup for a patch, or? I've never used pedals, so that's messing with me as well. I'm trying to wrap my head around recreating what I've done for years, along with the other stuff the axe does - maybe the wrong approach. Heading down to the laboratory for more experiments as soon as I post this. Looking forward to what anyone has to say. Not interested in the powered speaker approach. I'll send the signal to the PA, along with the cab sim for a controlled FOH sound, but I've decided to go for the power amp/cab route. Also interested in other live performance experiences. For me, adjusting caps or IR's to get a specific sound is beyond my intelligence level. I'm a user, with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Pretty sure I'll be able to find the exact sounds - eventually. I'd like to know how everyone else applies it all during a performance.

Anyone?
 
MikeDV said:
What I can't get yet is three basic, "just right" sounds - like I get with my favorite head/cab/fx combination
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What combination would that be? There are an infinite number of "just right" sounds, and every guitar player has his own idea of what that phrase means.

How do ya'll that play live do it?
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I have most of my presets set so that there is audible overdrive with the guitar volume fully open. How much overdrive depends on the preset and the range of sounds I'm going for. I have used a compressor in front of the amp (set to pedal mode) with a small amount of squash and some level boost, but lately I've been getting good results with a drive block. My present favorite is the "Tape Dist" drive with clip set to HV tube. You can tweak the tone controls in the drive block so the tonality of your guitar remains exactly the same when you punch it in, but with more saturation. Even with the drive engaged, however, my presets clean up completely when I back off the guitar volume.

Most folks here seem to be recording, or playing in their home studios
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Not I. I'm gigging with my rig.

Separate patches, with different amp models (or variations on a single amp model), and fx configurations, or, with DRV modules in your grid, making a two-channel setup for a patch, or?
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See above. I never used drive pedals with physical amps - although I did use a Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer for a little extra juice on occasion. The amp models have very different characters. Generally speaking, I use a single amp signature for a song, and I don't change presets mid-song. I only switch effects on and off as required. One thing you can do to change the amount of overdrive continuously is assign the Drive and Level parameters in the amp block to the same pedal, with Level going down to balance the effect of increasing Drive. You'll have to tweak this quite a bit in order to get your volume to remain relatively constant (or perhaps to increase somewhat as you turn up Drive), but it can definitely be done. You'll then have a huge range of sounds between the pedal and guitar volume control.

FWIW, I do use a powered speaker. However, if you're happy with the sound of a particular physical cab, your approach should not be any more difficult to get to work out.
 
Actually, everyone I know in Denver and a lot of people here play their Axe-fx out.

It really is almost impossible to know exactly what you are going for.

The best tip I can give is start simple and build from there. Try to get you three tones on separate presets until they where you want.
 
Lots of people do things different ways.

Personally, I dont set up patches for songs, but set up like a real amp rig
I have 5 patches set up - basically because I have 5 patches per bank on my controler available. I use 3 mostly with the other two used occasionally.

I have all my patches set up the same too - though with different settings. I run the basic amps as clean, crunch, gain, high gain and modern (more scooped).

Each patch as 2 drive pedals (or one deive and a boost), and each amp has two switchable gain levels - so each patch is like having a 2 channel amp with a couple of drive pedals (though I dont use the drive pedals that often appart from the clean and crunch patch).

I also have a volume boost (via a null fdilter at the end of the chain), a compressor, reverb, chorus and delay per patch (all toggleable like a pedalboared) along with 2 more IA switches. 1 handles Phaser OR flanger sounds while the other is Rotory OR Tremolo FX.

The clean is a Dr Z. On low gain it is clean, while the 2ng gain level is just breaking with Single coils and crunchy with HBs.
The Crunch is the Buttery and is AC/DClevels on low gain and more like Thin Lizzy on high.
The Gain is a Hiwatt patch (modelling my old VHT 50ST head). Low gain is very Gilmore - higher gain more like satriano(on lower gain levels)
High Gain is the Fryette M. Low gain is like Iron maiden levels - high is fatter - great for creamy solos.
Modern is the Das Metal, and is a scooped modcern thrash tone - quite early Metalica on low gain - again fattening up whith the boost.

My Vol pot also works a treat. The Fryette cleans up really well, as does the Crunch and gain patches.

This is my take ans seems to work well live, BUT other have a different approach.
 
paulmapp, now that's what I'm looking for, other users actual setup, and how they work live. I really don't need any instructions about how to go about it, I'm looking to compare. paul, looks like you're set up similar to how I am currently going. Oddly, my amps are VHT (sig-x & CLX) as well. Great minds.....
 
Four main patches:
clean: blackface + 2x12
clean: dumble + 4x10
crunch: trainwrek + 4x12 (greenback)
lead: ubershaller + 4x12 (V30)

Similar setting as paulmapp. Block used as virtual pedal, bypassed with IA.
 
MikeDV said:
I really don't need any instructions about how to go about it, I'm looking to compare.
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Then perhaps you should consider providing information about how you're doing it now, so we can all compare....
 
My setup for live is 6 patches. Each are setup very similar.
1. Clean with fx added as needed via IA's.
2. Plexi for classic rock - fx can be added as needed and one IA toggles boost/delay for leads.
3. Mark type tone with chorus - fx can be added as needed and one IA toggles boost/delay for leads.
4. CA3+ for harder rock - fx can be added as needed and one IA toggles boost/delay for leads.
5. JCM800 for harder rock - fx can be added as needed and one IA toggles boost/delay for leads.
6. Mark IV for harder rock - fx can be added as needed and one IA toggles boost/delay for leads.

The band plays a pretty wide range of tunes, and with these 6 presets I can hit every tone I need and have common IA's so I don't have to think a lot. It's always the same button to boost volume and add delay for leads etc. I love the feature (and use it all the time) on the LFP that allows you to retrigger initial patch settings. I can be adding fx as I go along and then kick in the boost/delay for lead, and then with one stomp of the preset button, I'm back to initial patch settings.

I still may tweak, but for now this is working well with minimal thinking and maximal jamming :cool:
 
i setup all my patches on the same rig at the same volume - this is important for consistency. it could be a pair of studio monitors quietly in your bedroom, or a 4x12 cab at stage volume. whatever it is, keep it the same when building patches.

after i make my patches (at home with studio monitors for example), i make sure i'm happy with the EQ and levels of all the patches together. it all has to sound good there to sound good elsewhere.

then i try to mimic my live situation as close as possible. as we all know, you can't make patches with headphones, then expect them to sound good at 110 dB live on stage. so i plug into my live rig and try to play as close to stage volume as possible. rent a studio or find a big room that you can play loudly in. to me, there is no other way to sound good loud without playing and adjusting while loud.

i put a graphic eq at the end of every patch*. this is my "live" EQ. it's off when at home (since i create my tones there) but i can turn them on and adjust individual patches at the gig. i find myself usually cutting low and high end, sometimes shaping the mids. but this eq can be saved and just turned on and off depending where i am to compensate for the FM curve where bass and treble get louder first as you increase overall volume.

this has helped me live. BTW i run fully direct, with a powered speaker for monitor, and direct to the soundboard with XLR.


*i've gotten a bit better with EQ lately, and now I just use the global graphic EQs to shape my tone for live. i realize that generally if one patch is bassy, every patch is bassy at the same frequency so just adjust global and i'm done. remember, we EQ for the room and that room is a constant... if 250hz is loud for my clean patch, it should be the same too loud for my distortion patch... etc. so i'm actually not using that extra GEQ on each patch anymore. though, it's still there if i need to tame something crazy at the gig.
 
For live shows, I'm sending Output 1 to the board, which I've spent a good amount of time tweaking at home against recordings, and more tweaking at the rehearsal studio out of the PA. Output 2 is what I send to my poweramp/4x12, without the cab sim. Each output has its own PEQ at the end of the chain. The key is to tweak the amp so it's in the ballpark of where you want, then fine tune the two outputs independently with their own PEQ. The signal to the PA sounded much better in the mix with some high/low blocking, whereas I didn't really need to add/remove much to the amp/cab signal.

The setup works pretty well - it has a good feel and thump thru the amp/cab, and the FOH gets a consistent feed from show to show. I have no problems hearing myself, even with a very loud drummer in the mix.
 
I play live with my rig almost exclusively. I can't recall ever actually recording anything with it in a studio yet. And, I've had mine a LONG time (before firmware 2.0).

You need to connect it up to a similar speaker type and turn up the volume to near gig levels to tweak properly. I've tried messing with patches while connected to studio monitors and even if I turn them up it sounds different later through a full blown PA. So, I connect to a mixer and PA speakers at home and turn it up to about 90-100 db.

There is no consistency in the PAs that we play through at gigs. One day its EAWs stacked in a theater .... the next day a flown Meyer line array. All are good quality though. The differences would probably be the same as if I miked an amp through various PAs in different venues so I quit worrying about it long ago.

I have about 65 patches that get used in the show. It's not practical to be tweaking patches for each night.

Here's a good tweaking tip though..... get a line 6 backtracker. Little unit that records what you play and plays back. Put it first in line and play a riff from your guitar. Record the riff and play it back into the input of your rig. Now you can put the guitar down while the riff of your playing loops and you can spin knobs etc while the guitar riff plays. MUCH faster.
 
Tedge said:
There is no consistency in the PAs that we play through at gigs. One day its EAWs stacked in a theater .... the next day a flown Meyer line array. All are good quality though. The differences would probably be the same as if I miked an amp through various PAs in different venues so I quit worrying about it long ago.
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Well said, and my sentiments exactly. There's something to be said about having a solid base tone to work with, for sure, and like everyone else, I spend hours and hours dialing in my tone as well. That said, in a live setting, even after the signal finally hits the board, you've still only covered one part of a very long equation. The way I see it, when it comes to live shows, there is such a thing as being "close enough". Just my humble opinion.
 
Here's a good tweaking tip though..... get a line 6 backtracker. Little unit that records what you play and plays back. Put it first in line and play a riff from your guitar. Record the riff and play it back into the input of your rig. Now you can put the guitar down while the riff of your playing loops and you can spin knobs etc while the guitar riff plays. MUCH faster.[/quote]

wow great idea! I've been trying to figure out a good reamping method and i don't know why i never thought of that, could you do the same thing with a looper like the jamman or boss and put it at the front of the chain? Or would this not work?
 
Tedge said:
...

Here's a good tweaking tip though..... get a line 6 backtracker. Little unit that records what you play and plays back. Put it first in line and play a riff from your guitar. Record the riff and play it back into the input of your rig. Now you can put the guitar down while the riff of your playing loops and you can spin knobs etc while the guitar riff plays. MUCH faster.
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If you have ultra you could do the same thing with the looper which is a part of a delay block.

Mik.
 
Great replies guys - just what I was looking for. Most are doing similar to what I've been trying, but, when playing out I've been reverting to the amp head/fx, because I haven't been able to get the AFX dialed in just right - yet. I've used it for rehearsal, and had the - "oooh, that's awesome" results on one patch, followed by "oh shit" with another. One of my personal problems is that - so many cool amp sounds, every example can be dialed in for a cool crunch sound (for example) - each sounds good in it's own way - really a personal problem - which one to choose. Wow, 65 patches? One for each song on your song list? Hmmmmm. Paradigm shift - maybe.

Also, the EQ suggestions, as posted elsewhere as well, are very useful.

Thanks again - keep 'em coming. If/when I finally come over to the light (or the dark side), I'll post my personal thing. BTW, I use a Johnson J-12 foot controller, which works perfectly! Unfortunately, it needs a Digitech unit (I use a 2101) for the MIDI through business. Built like a tank, one powered MIDI cord, fully programmable, two expression pedals. Fractal - why not one of those?
 
I use lots of patches because I play in a U2 tribute. Each song tends to be a highly unique sound and some songs have 2-4 very different sounds in various sections of the song. Most other gigs probably wouldn't need that many. Also be aware the if you feel like you need to do every firmware update every single time, it's a TON of work to manage that many presets. Basically once you get a working system that sounds good, you need to "freeze the design" for awhile to remain sane.

You can use a jamman or other looper in the way that I use the backtracker. I just use that cause it's dead easy and it plugs into the front of my entire rig in the same place the guitar plugs in. Once I unplug it and plug the guitar back in, nothing is different in any of the routings.

I'm divorced. So, the drive the wife crazy thing doesn't apply.
 
I started out really ambitious and created 5 patches for each song, thinking I'd switch between patches and not have to mess with individual stomp boxes for a given song. But, this got to a point where it wasn't practical anymore. Plus, I changed my mind and decided it's more fun to use the stompboxes creatively and switch effects myself.

Now I use 3 main patches:

1: Rhythm guitar - Cornford with a Rat drive turned on by default. I have my patch set up to turn a compressor on when I turn the Rat off, and vice versa. When I turn the drive off, I can go from a nice crunchy "classic rock" sound to a clean-ish sound using the volume knob. With the Rat on, it's a nice ballsy distortion, works well for rhythm and lead.

2: Dirty guitar - Same as 1 but with the Rat turned off by default. Just makes it easier as a starting point for songs that don't need all the drive.

3: Clean guitar - The Cornford doesn't really clean up as much as I need it to for certain things, so I had to make a separate clean patch. Finally settled on the USA Clean for this one, has a little bit of chorus and delay on by default. I have a slightly different drive pedal setting for this patch, so I can kick on some grit without it getting too distorted.

For all of these patches, I have CC's set up for phaser, chorus, harmony, and delay. I am using the 2 pedals on the FCB1010 as dedicated wah and volume. I can create most of the sounds I need like this.

I do have other ideas but am working within the limitations of my FCB1010 for now. I'm hoping the MFC will let me get a little more creative with my effect switching. My goal is to have mainly 2 patches for each key (rhythm and clean) but with a larger palette of effects available by CC (drive, compression, 2 modulation, delay, looper, and maybe a rotary and multidelay or synth). I prefer to treat each patch as a virtual pedalboard. Might be cool to have a dual amp setup as well, so clean and rhythm are in the same patch. But, assuming I will eventually have a pedal with more than 5 stompbox CC's, I'd rather conserve the additional CPU for a wider array of effects available at my disposal and just have a separate patch for clean sounds. Am also hoping I'll be able to consolidate wah/volume into one pedal (using a Mission pedal with the toe switch) and have a 2nd expression pedal available to control things like whammy, delay, etc.

I want to build as much sonic potential into one patch as possible. The main reason for this approach is consistency. I am still learning how this thing works, and my idea of what sounds good is an evolving process. I got to the point where I'd make a change to one song's rhythm patch in practice, then later I'd realize I needed to go back and make that change for all my other rhythm patches for the other songs. I'm also a sucker for new toys and always install the new firmwares. As a result, I'm trying to minimize the number of patches I use but maximize what I can do with each patch.

I also play through a power amp and cab. Haven't had the guts to go direct to FOH just yet. My only complaint is the sound guys usually look at me crazy when I say I want 2 mics, so sometimes I have to run mono, when my patches are designed for stereo. Other than that, I've been extremely happy with the sonic territory I can cover with just a few patches.
 
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