Live woes- two guitar band and cutting through the mix

fenderbenderlax said:
Thats a good point. I did not think about adding more of my own signal through a separate mixer into the IEM. will try that out and see if that works
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I'm not sure but think this might result in phase cancelling... however, key is to make sure you hear yourself in your monitor good enough vs the rest of the band, independent from FOH mix.
 
warlockII said:
... In one band, the guitar player can never have his guitar loud enough :( ...sadly, there isn't a cure for this that I've been able to find…
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Ultimatum time. It’s no fun playing in those conditions, it’s no fun for the audience, and it’s not going to win friends with venue owners. If he won’t take a hint then be direct. If that doesn’t work then leave.
 
Boost 750 and 2750 Hz 3 dB. Each instrument needs its own frequency range "space." If your frequencies overlap, the result will be turning up>mush>audience rolling eyes. Bass & kick drum typically live in the 83 to 350 Hz. range. Guitars in the 400 to 4000 Hz range...etc.

Musicians, much like people themselves, need enough space to breathe, dwell and eat otherwise they are more easily irritated because their "personal space" is decreased or violated. Understand why there is dislike for regions with higher concentrated populations...people are naturally claustrophobic when they are put together in small spaces (read: subways, buses).

Musician's likewise, need their own space in the mix to be heard at appropriate levels without increasing volume to where it's too loud. Allowing each musician his own place in the mix makes for happier campers.
 
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I encounter this all the time with various bands. Having your own monitoring for your guitar rig on stage is essential under these circumstances. You just can't count on the FOH system providing you with sufficient monitoring for your guitar when there are amps on stage.
 
I'd like to add that positioning your guitar parts in the FOH mix is not the same as having a good monitormix for yourself. It depends on your role in the band and the parts you play: lead or rhythm, more ambient/texture, etc.
To play with ease and confidence, you just need to hear yourself in your monitormix. Boosting your specific frequencies still ends in a volume war, and the FOH guy will turn you down like he always did.
 
Lots of good tips in this thread. I currently play in a couple 2 guitar bands. My advice is:

1. Eq your sounds differently for the live mix. Whether that's in the sound from the amp or only to FOH/monitors, each guitar needs to occupy a slightly different spectrum to stand out without obscene volume wars. Our "trick" is using different IRs for each guitar. Me=1960 Dyna cab with Condenser. Other guitar=Recto Slant Dyna-Cab with Dynamic 2. We have very good separation of sound this way, but we're using the same amp model(s) with only slightly different BMT settings. We both run Axe FXII or FM3 FM9.
2. TURN down on stage! Too much stage volume leads to mud and smears all the individual instruments-especially guitars. This leads to more turning up and more mud and the FOH guy will quickly lose any control of balancing the mix. We each balance with the drums first then minor tweaks between our volumes. We never are super loud. If you use IEMs, there's no reason for stupid loud. If using wedges, put a little of each guitar in the wedge with yours 3 dB higher. Remember Fletcher Munson comes into play with volume and that will increase the perception of highs and lows and reduction of midrange. No midrange=guitar sound lost in a mix.
3. Turn down the gain in your sound and turn up the kids! Lower gain is punchier, more dynamic and at gig volume sustain will be there without all the compression of more gain. More mids -800-1500 punches through.


FWIW, we both use 80-90hz low cut and 4000-5500k high cuts in the cab block and through a PA that is plenty bright. We run stereo with the FOH panned slightly heavy to our respective sides of stage.

Theres probably a lot more to say but this, from my experience, this helps both guitars stand out on their own without being too loud and overbearing and the urge to keep turning up to hear yourself.
 
fenderbenderlax said:
I agree but the band seems to want to get the live feel and not very keen on going the IEM route. But maybe thats the direction to go. Great point!
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Another thing you might try (if it's doable) is to side fill the guitars with some 112's to keep your live feel but keep them reasonable while you use IEM's.
 
@∞Fractals and @Rex have it right. This is basic dynamics. If your other guitar player doesn't know how to control their volume then you need to explain the concept of dynamics to him.

Next target is likely your drummer since so many I hear out these days cannot control their volume. If everyone is blasting away then everything will usually end up sounding like mush to the audience unless everyone (or FOH) knows how to carve out eq bandwidth for separate instrumentation.
 
Rex Rox said:
Next target is likely your drummer since so many I hear out these days cannot control their volume. If everyone is blasting away then everything will usually end up sounding like mush to the audience unless everyone (or FOH) knows how to carve out eq bandwidth for separate instrumentation.
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Aiiii. Don't get me started. There are two kinds of skilled drummers: the kind that that can fit a wide dynamic range into whatever loudness is needed, and the kind that can only fit that range into the loud end of the scale.

I work with both kinds, including drummers whose side gigs include international touring acts, with amazing skills, but just can't dial it down to fit the venue. It's a bear to try to manage that from behind the mixing desk.
 
Rex said:
Aiiii. Don't get me started. There are two kinds of skilled drummers: the kind that that can fit a wide dynamic range into whatever loudness is needed, and the kind that can only fit that range into the loud end of the scale.

I work with both kinds, including drummers whose side gigs include international touring acts, with amazing skills, but just can't dial it down to fit the venue. It's a bear to try to manage that from behind the mixing desk.
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Jazz drummers rule! Every single one them has to nail dynamics or they can't truthfully call themselves a jazz drummer. Best drummers I ever played with were jazz trained.
 
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Rex said:
This. Jazz drummers can dance like nobody.
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The drummer in our trio is so good!

You can usually tell instantly by their stick grip. Open handed? (Meaning sticks are gripped between thumb and 1st 2 fingers only) or classic grip with snare hand stick held sideways pencil style - those cats can go from subtle whisper to banging and back again. They use more wrist than arm motion too - their arms usually look strangley still compared to most R&R drummers. They are also very adept at getting a boatload of sounds out of a small kit.

He is brush master too. Sometimes I just stand there and smile while I listen to him go. He studied Jazz at Berklee so it figures.
 
eric cartman fight GIF by South Park





3rd cut (if you’re impatient)
 
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I have a two guitar band. Probably not the touring professional arena soundcheck but here is how we like to soundcheck (if time permitted) with FOH calling the shots. The vocals and drums are done same way.

1. Each guitar and bass is first soundcheck through PA only to ensure FOH as proper volumes, etc. No stage volume for now. We go direct to FOH but depending venue will have a cab or FRFR on stage.
2. Once FOH has good volume the stage volume (amp, FRFR, etc) is turned up until FOH gives OK that the blend is right.
3. Band plays a song that features harmony guitars and solo for each guitar player.
4. FOH will make the call to increase/decrease any stage instrument.
5. Adjust monitors as required.
6. Play song again.
7. READY TO ROCK.

Right or wrong this seems to work for us.

As mentioned above by @Sully0556 if a band member decides to start turning up stage volume (not monitor volume) the FOH will turn them off in the mix. So far we have good sound and can hear each other no matter the venue.
 
muudrock said:
Lots of good tips in this thread. I currently play in a couple 2 guitar bands. My advice is:


2. TURN down on stage! Too much stage volume leads to mud and smears all the individual instruments-especially guitars. This leads to more turning up and more mud and the FOH guy will quickly lose any control of balancing the mix. We each balance with the drums first then minor tweaks between our volumes. We never are super loud.
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^^^ Exactly. If not there will be problems throughout the gig. Have FOH provide some more monitor volume instead of turning around a cranking the amp.
 
∞Fractals said:
I saw Antonio w Pat once …

A clock … w/ metaphysical touch
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Antonio is a freak. I was primarily a drummer up until a few years ago, so I'm looking at him, knowing how much work it takes to get to a high level of playing, and Antonio is one of those guys who's incredibly driven to get better, even now. His ability to keep the intensity level high whilst playing at low volumes is second to none.

And an Oscar winner, to boot!
 
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