Leslie: different speeds for treble horn and bass speaker?

Should we be able to change horn & drum speeds separately?


  • Total voters
    36

psst

Inspired
I think it would be much accurate if the speed of the horn and the speaker could be set to different speeds.
 
Wouldn't that only be more accurate if your Leslie cabinet was malfunctioning? They're supposed to turn at the same rates in a real cab. You can also run a couple Rotary blocks in parallel if you want to set them differently.
 
No, in the real leslie they have different speeds, it's not a malfunction.
The sound is much more alive like that, cause it changes all the time.

Yeah, I can do that using two rotarys in the axe, but if we want it "right" (and, with the level of detail in the rest of the things the axe does, I think we all agree we want a very important detail, not subtle at all, right) it has to be fixed...
 
I couldn't find anything to back that up, and then I looked at the Wiki and saw that I'd previously found different ranges on a Leslie 147's horn and drum. :p I did find a lot of mentions that the horn spins up faster than the drum, which would probably be important in modeling proper behaviour too. That's just a Modifier issue, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

What do you think would be the easiest way to do this? Should there be a completely separate knob for each speed, or a "speed offset" knob for the horn?
 
scarr said:
I couldn't find anything to back that up, and then I looked at the Wiki and saw that I'd previously found different ranges on a Leslie 147's horn and drum. :p I did find a lot of mentions that the horn spins up faster than the drum, which would probably be important in modeling proper behaviour too. That's just a Modifier issue, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

What do you think would be the easiest way to do this? Should there be a completely separate knob for each speed, or a "speed offset" knob for the horn?

I believe when I was looking at the schematics of one of the more common models it had a fast and slow speed for each driver.

http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/my ... stery.html
 
javajunkie said:
I believe when I was looking at the schematics of one of the more common models it had a fast and slow speed for each driver.
The fast/slow thing is common, and the tutorial on the Wiki addresses that. The issue here is if the speeds of the horn & rotor match each other. (I didn't find anything in the linked page about that.)
 
On all real leslie speakers I've owned or heard the rate of speeding up/slowing down is never matched (horn and bass) and also when you reach the fast speed, or have both at slow speed, they never match. I think that's the reason why they sound great, so having separate speeds would be nice, but for me I hardly ever use the leslie effect for guitar, so it's not too important, + I still have a real 122 leslie speaker here, just don't have a way to plug it in, as I sold my hammond, but I'll probaly get a preamp from Goff to be able to use it with guitar in the studio.
 
scarr said:
What do you think would be the easiest way to do this? Should there be a completely separate knob for each speed, or a "speed offset" knob for the horn?

Either way would be ok, maybe clearer for everybody if it's different speed knobs.
The only really good Leslie emulator, the Dynacord CLS 222 (which I own and use) uses that approach, it has a couple of trimmers in the rear side to change the factory set speeds for drum and horn.
That's actually the only external effect that I have to use besides a Fuzz Face installed in my guitar. It would be nice to be able to to skip the Dynacord and use Axe's rotary speaker. Other than that effect, the rest is awesome.
 
Oh, I just find a tip to have different speeds for bass and treble.

Use a crossover block just before two rotary blocks...

It's working fine for me.
 
I had a HUGE leslie trip a number of years back, and spent way more time in the studio after hours than any healthy human should, doing nothing more than playing with different leslies and micing options.

There is no set speed on a real leslie. The horns and lower drum are belt driven and generally have been through way more than they were intended. As you use them, the speeds change. The temperature and age of the belt alone can affect the speed noticeably.

Even if the speeds matched, they wouldn't really match. The top horn is generally a dual horn (2 facing in opposite directions which actually spin) so you will hear 2 pulses per rotation. The bottom speaker doesn't spin. Instead a drum around the bottom speaker spins. There is only one hole in the drum, thus only one pulse per rotation. The bubbling warbling sound (or however you want to describe it) that brings me and so many other unlimited joy and shivers down the spine is from the inherent mismatch. In other words the rubbing between the high and low waves.

These speeds differ greatly from cabinet to cabinet.

The acceleration on the top dual horn and the lower drum is also quite different the top and bottom as well as between different cabinets. The mere physics of the design dictate that. It's all about unsprung weight. Any motorcycle riders in here will know what I'm talking about. One of the ways to increase speed and mobility is to decrease unsprung weight. The main weight of the top horn is in the center where the magnet is. When the weight is more centralized, it's simply easier to get it up to speed. The drum on the other hand has more weight on the outside thus has a harder job to get up to speed. Try getting a rope and tying a 2lb weight on one end and a 1lb weight on the other. Now try holding each weight in turn and spinning the other over your head (make sure no one is standing near and that you know how to tie a good knot). Which was easier to spin and got up to speed faster. Same applies.

Not all leslie have 2 speeds. Some I've used are merely on and off and a brake to slow it. Whether the brake was original or not I don't know. These brakes, like everything else about leslies, varied in effect from cabinet to cabinet as well as between top and bottom.

The real magic of the leslie is not the set speeds, but the transitional speeds and sounds they create. Thats why you'll see quite often hammond players who know what they're doing constantly changing the speed. There are obviously times when you would just set it and forget it, but when they're really working it, they're searching for and trying to stay in that transitional stage of acceleration/deceleration.

I really like the idea of going for the B4 sort of emulation. It seems in my experience to really match a true leslie sound. The acceleration, slow speed, fast speed, as well as mic balance are crucial to getting a real sound with the flavor you so desire. I think a really good modification to the B4 is adding the brake such as Hughes and Kettner did.

I'm sure that would take a lot of processor, but if your using a leslie. I can't see that you would be able to use much else. A real leslie sound is pretty big and all absorbing, but it's not really a speaker type so much as an amp type. Pretty much every leslie I've ever used is in fact a tube amp in and of itself. That's why you can but a keyboard into it (or a guitar for that matter :D ). I like turning the gain up to full and wailing on a big rotator. Tubescreamers work well into them as well. Maybe it could be a power stage as well as a cabinet to get the real feel.

Personally I would use a sim like this to no end. There is reason that most tone serious guitarist won't settle for one of the stomp box emulations and instead cart these hernia inducing cabinets from gig to gig. Some have given up carting a wardrobe sized box around, but pretty much all who have admit that it's a real compromise in sound quality. I reckon that if something like what I said above were available, the number of guitarist using a leslie would jump dramatically. Many would say "I'd never use that", but I believe that to be merely because it wasn't a real option that could be explored. I think the same could be said of a number of the tweak-able options available on the AFX. Many had never thought to have or could afford the mods, but now find them indispensable.

To clarify:

-NI B4 sound customization (speeds and accelerations and mic balancing....possibly ambiance which is pretty important and hard to get with just reverb)

-H&K (not the gun) brake

-Tube gain stage

-3 button midi controllability (on/off, fast/slow, brake on an intermittent switch)

Forgive me if i've rambled, repeated myself, or missed something. It's now 7am here in Sydney....I am yet to go to bed, and I have a 5 hour drive ahead of me to get to my gig tonight. Did I mention my kids will soon be up and bombarding me with "Daddy, breakfast please".

Leslie....the first and still the greatest chorus ever.
 
onemoreguitar said:
To clarify:

-NI B4 sound customization (speeds and accelerations and mic balancing....possibly ambiance which is pretty important and hard to get with just reverb)

-H&K (not the gun) brake

-Tube gain stage

-3 button midi controllability (on/off, fast/slow, brake on an intermittent switch)
+20 000
Cliff, please, take a look to those features!!!...
 
Seems like there's gonna be an answer to our prays:

Also, the Leslie sim has been completely rewritten. The rotors have their own motors and speed up/slow down at different rates. The effect of the cabinet itself has been taken into account along with the freq. response of the HF horn.



Onemoreguitar, cool post, I'm crazy about rotary speakers too, I use mine *all the time* (mixed with different guitar cabs).
Just a couple of details: none of the drivers on the classic Leslies rotate, it's actually the baffles that rotate (a horn and a drum). There are rotating speakers where the speaker actually rotates, though, like Maestro Rover, or Tolerance Sound (I own two of these):

http://www.tolerancesound.com

In the classic leslies there's a dual horn, yes (for counterweight purposes) but one of the horns is "blind", the sound only comes out through one of them (there's some rare models exceptions).

Looking forward to trying this new Rotary Block, if it can at least match my Dynacord, I'll be a happy guy.
 
psst said:
Seems like there's gonna be an answer to our prays:

Also, the Leslie sim has been completely rewritten. The rotors have their own motors and speed up/slow down at different rates. The effect of the cabinet itself has been taken into account along with the freq. response of the HF horn.



Onemoreguitar, cool post, I'm crazy about rotary speakers too, I use mine *all the time* (mixed with different guitar cabs).
Just a couple of details: none of the drivers on the classic Leslies rotate, both are actually baffles that rotate (a horn and a drum). There are rotating speakers where the speaker actually rotates, though, like Maestro Rover, or Tolerance Sound (I own two of these):

http://www.tolerancesound.com

In the classic leslies there's a dual horn, yes (for counterweight purposes) but one of the horns is "blind", the sound only comes out through one of them (there's some rare models exceptions).

Looking forward to trying this new Rotary Block, if it can at least match my Dynacord, I'll be a happy guy.


Sounds good. I can't wait to try it out. Love your work Cliff.

Only the very first ones relied completely on baffles. By far the most used and known, IME, is with a rotating horn. You're quite right. One horn is just counterweight in stock cabs, but quite a large percentage of the cabs I've used and seen are modified to a dual horn. I'd say, IME, they're about 50/50 to 60/40 in favor of mods. The second horn changes the sound obviously. It seemed to me that more gig work horses were moded while studio units stayed stock (except for the fast/slow/brake switch and inputs, which we're modified quite a bit to allow any instrument to use it and to control the speed from another room). Just an observation. Same goes for guitar guitar gear (moded vs stock). I'm not sure of the major significance of the second horn. It changed the sound, but better? I don't know, just different. Horses for courses. The dual horns rub more than the single ones. It's still signature leslie, I reckon I could find just as much variation in sound between stock units as single and dual horn models. I didn't know there were any stock leslies with 2 working horns, but again, I've seen quite a few moded cabs. I'll look into that. Always love to learn new info on leslies.

Not sure if you know, but there are also a number of models with a separate reverb unit and dedicated 6"/9" speaker in them. Not really a big issue. You can already do this in the AFX no worries. Could use a good 6"/9" IR though. The stock one leaves a lot to be desired.


The TS Revolvers are nice bit of kit. They look pretty cool too. I tried some small rotaries out a few years back. Can't remember the brands. probably those ones. They sounded pretty good, not exactly like a leslie, but still very good in their own right IMO.

I think I better wrap this up and start playing with the new leslie sim. I can't wait. :D :D :D

If it sounds good, try an octavia into it. Output on full, gain kinda low to mid and probably quite a high slew rate. I know that works well in the real world. Lets see how it sounds in AFX world. If it sounds good, I might have to post a patch or 2.
 
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