Latency to Front of House?

[Rumbletone]

There are a decent numbers of venues in my area (front range Colorado) that have an outboard rack with a stack of different limiters for different applications now. At least that is what I have been told by friends. The last time I played out was pre pandemic/lockdown (2018) - from back then I would agree with you - compressors only in my experience .

I am only going by what I have been told. I'm playing one venue later this month and the backline gear list they sent included 8 brick wall limiters. It doesn't specify whether those are outboard or inboard though so we'll see. If they are inboard then a brick wall might not help with latency depending on the load on the board. I would think if it says backline it means backline.

Sure many venues will have limiters and comps and many other processors available. But why do you think your guitar signal should have one on it or that limiting the signal would affect latency?

In any event, it sounds like there was an issue with FoH, and there’s nothing you can do to fix that from your rig (unless it includes a time travel machine!). Talk to whoever booked you into the gig and ensure they have a competent tech, and demand a soundcheck next time.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

Any digital effect designed for FOH will be near zero latency. Should be +/- 3 samples or so. Now not to say a string of things can’t add up, but effects in a board won’t be the sole reason for audible latency.
Most times I’ve experienced this was pilot error at the board.

 

[Rex Rox]

But why do you think your guitar signal should have one on it or that limiting the signal would affect latency?

In my experience many venues don't give you a choice. They always put a limiter on backline signals going to FOH. I guess maybe they want to protect their gear and people's ears in case some fool smashes a volume pot on stage?

Outboard rack gear if set right will never affect latency enough to notice. Digital stuff built in to FOH board - depends on the board and the load. No matter what or where the limiter/comp is if some FOH person sets the attack too high it will introduce what you might perceive as latency. This is probably the most likely scenario in what the OP was describing.

 

[Werpinater]

In my experience many venues don't give you a choice. They always put a limiter on backline signals going to FOH. I guess maybe they want to protect their gear and people's ears in case some fool smashes a volume pot on stage?

Outboard rack gear if set right will never affect latency enough to notice. Digital stuff built in to FOH board - depends on the board and the load. No matter what or where the limiter/comp is if some FOH person sets the attack too high it will introduce what you might perceive as latency. This is probably the most likely scenario in what the OP was describing.

My guess is OP’s scenario was a sound tech thinking they were adding a delay effect, but adding time correction delay instead. If it was an X32 or M32 I could see how an inexperienced tech would think that. Asking to try an unused/empty channel likely will fix the issue.

 

[greiswig]

.... I had a weird issue with noticeable latency for my sound. The other guitarist had no problem with his.

Late to the party here, evidently, but I'm not clear on how you perceived this latency? Is it you, via IEMs and the other guitar player isn't using them? Is it actually someone in the audience saying that there's a difference in when they see you hit that Pete Townsend arm swing and when they hear it? Is it you hearing a difference between when a note hits your monitor and when you hear it from the FOH system?

Lots of good suggestions here, but it's harder to address unless we know what you're perceiving.

 

[AnswerInfinity]

Late to the party here, evidently, but I'm not clear on how you perceived this latency? Is it you, via IEMs and the other guitar player isn't using them? Is it actually someone in the audience saying that there's a difference in when they see you hit that Pete Townsend arm swing and when they hear it? Is it you hearing a difference between when a note hits your monitor and when you hear it from the FOH system?

Lots of good suggestions here, but it's harder to address unless we know what you're perceiving.

So, at first it was in my monitor. When I asked him to take me out of the monitor completely so I could at least not be thrown off, then I heard it from the FOH speakers when I moved to the front of the stage.

I didn't use IEMs at this gig, but I do have them and going to have to make use. That said, everyone in the audience would still have been getting a delayed signal from me.

Thanks for all the suggestions and input, guys!

 

[Greg Ferguson]

So, at first it was in my monitor. When I asked him to take me out of the monitor completely so I could at least not be thrown off, then I heard it from the FOH speakers when I moved to the front of the stage.

I didn't use IEMs at this gig, but I do have them and going to have to make use. That said, everyone in the audience would still have been getting a delayed signal from me.

That's a hellish experience. We used to mess around with headphones and a mic into a reel-to-reel set on its fastest speed, and see if we could hold a conversation or read aloud from a book. Nobody could make it more than a few seconds then we'd start stuttering and repeating would begin and we'd start laughing. The brain doesn't do well with that sort of feedback.

 

[Werpinater]

That's a hellish experience. We used to mess around with headphones and a mic into a reel-to-reel set on its fastest speed, and see if we could hold a conversation or read aloud from a book. Nobody could make it more than a few seconds then we'd start stuttering and repeating would begin and we'd start laughing. The brain doesn't do well with that sort of feedback.

Now I play that game when I’m mixing a livestream and try to talk to someone with the headphones still on! I start stumbling words all over until I take the headphones off. Sometimes I just try to see how long before it’s too much though

 

[AnswerInfinity]

That's a hellish experience. We used to mess around with headphones and a mic into a reel-to-reel set on its fastest speed, and see if we could hold a conversation or read aloud from a book. Nobody could make it more than a few seconds then we'd start stuttering and repeating would begin and we'd start laughing. The brain doesn't do well with that sort of feedback.

It most definitely does not! =]

 

[Luca9583]

@AnswerInfinity a few questions...

Did the rest of your monitor mix sound like it was latency free and was your sound arriving late in everyone else's monitor mix?

Did the whole FOH mix sound like it was arriving late when you moved over to listen to it or was it just your channel on the desk that sounded late in the FOH mix?

What was the venue's FOH speaker configuration? Any delayed speakers at the back or was it just one set of speakers at the front? Seems very strange to have a delayed FOH signal for the FOH speakers right by the stage. Any audience clips from the night we can hear? Usually if the whole mix is arriving late to the crowd, you can hear the acoustic drums on the stage followed by the "slapback" of the delayed mix.

I'm assuming you've tested your presets after the gig with and without the extender box from the night and found that there isn't any latency in the Axe as expected. What was the extender box you used?

It would be worth troubleshooting more and sending the engineer from the night a friendly message asking what the desk was and if they still have their show file with your band's mix from the night saved. If it's an X32 or M32 we can easily load the show file and see if there was any time delay being added to your channel or anything else. As an FOH engineer i would be more than happy to do that as it's always worth solving problems for future shows.

Not sure why folks are suggesting that a limiter would add latency to your signal. Limiters tend to be applied only to the main FOH sound system if there are any noise restrictions, but they don't add latency. Some engineers might compress their whole monitor mixes but that's not a very good idea. Individual channels would probably be compressed. Regardless, if there was any limiting being applied to your Axe (a stupid idea given that your modelled amp tone is already compressed in the preamp modelling), you would hear it clamp down on the sound when changing presets from quiet to louder patches.

I wonder if the engineer applied a short milisecond delay as an insert on your channel, thinking it would thicken the sound up, but set it 100% wet.

+ 1 for future gigs to use either IEMs or a power amp and cab. I can safely say as both a musician and FOH engineer that using house monitors for amp modellers isn't a good idea. Every monitor wedge will already have some heavy eq on it, specifically with some typical cuts in the lower and upper mid frequencies which are the most important for any guitar sound. So already your tone is being compromised by going through the house monitors. Running a power amp and cab is a must if you're not using IEMs. Or, if you're not singing any vocals, ask the engineer to run your wedge totally flat without anything added.

 

[Werpinater]

@AnswerInfinity a few questions...

Did the rest of your monitor mix sound like it was latency free and was your sound arriving late in everyone else's monitor mix?

Did the whole FOH mix sound like it was arriving late when you moved over to listen to it or was it just your channel on the desk that sounded late in the FOH mix?

What was the venue's FOH speaker configuration? Any delayed speakers at the back or was it just one set of speakers at the front? Seems very strange to have a delayed FOH signal for the FOH speakers right by the stage. Any audience clips from the night we can hear? Usually if the whole mix is arriving late to the crowd, you can hear the acoustic drums on the stage followed by the "slapback" of the delayed mix.

I'm assuming you've tested your presets after the gig with and without the extender box from the night and found that there isn't any latency in the Axe as expected. What was the extender box you used?

It would be worth troubleshooting more and sending the engineer from the night a friendly message asking what the desk was and if they still have their show file with your band's mix from the night saved. If it's an X32 or M32 we can easily load the show file and see if there was any time delay being added to your channel or anything else. As an FOH engineer i would be more than happy to do that as it's always worth solving problems for future shows.

Not sure why folks are suggesting that a limiter would add latency to your signal. Limiters tend to be applied only to the main FOH sound system if there are any noise restrictions, but they don't add latency. Some engineers might compress their whole monitor mixes but that's not a very good idea. Individual channels would probably be compressed. Regardless, if there was any limiting being applied to your Axe (a stupid idea given that your modelled amp tone is already compressed in the preamp modelling), you would hear it clamp down on the sound when changing presets from quiet to louder patches.

I wonder if the engineer applied a short milisecond delay as an insert on your channel, thinking it would thicken the sound up, but set it 100% wet.

+ 1 for future gigs to use either IEMs or a power amp and cab. I can safely say as both a musician and FOH engineer that using house monitors for amp modellers isn't a good idea. Every monitor wedge will already have some heavy eq on it, specifically with some typical cuts in the lower and upper mid frequencies which are the most important for any guitar sound. So already your tone is being compromised by going through the house monitors. Running a power amp and cab is a must if you're not using IEMs. Or, if you're not singing any vocals, ask the engineer to run your wedge totally flat without anything added.

My guess is an inexperienced tech didn’t understand the per channel delay.

Another suggestion is to bring a powered wedge or monitor. Then you get you IR/direct tone in a speaker for yourself, and it’s in quite a few cases more convenient to carry.

I do this when playing for musicals as I get guitar only through my personal speaker and can put everything else in a separate monitor if available. This works best for me because I swap between electric and acoustic and I don’t need to make the “acoustic through the guitar cab” compromise

 

[AnswerInfinity]

@AnswerInfinity a few questions...

Did the rest of your monitor mix sound like it was latency free and was your sound arriving late in everyone else's monitor mix?

Did the whole FOH mix sound like it was arriving late when you moved over to listen to it or was it just your channel on the desk that sounded late in the FOH mix?

What was the venue's FOH speaker configuration? Any delayed speakers at the back or was it just one set of speakers at the front? Seems very strange to have a delayed FOH signal for the FOH speakers right by the stage. Any audience clips from the night we can hear? Usually if the whole mix is arriving late to the crowd, you can hear the acoustic drums on the stage followed by the "slapback" of the delayed mix.

I'm assuming you've tested your presets after the gig with and without the extender box from the night and found that there isn't any latency in the Axe as expected. What was the extender box you used?

It would be worth troubleshooting more and sending the engineer from the night a friendly message asking what the desk was and if they still have their show file with your band's mix from the night saved. If it's an X32 or M32 we can easily load the show file and see if there was any time delay being added to your channel or anything else. As an FOH engineer i would be more than happy to do that as it's always worth solving problems for future shows.

Not sure why folks are suggesting that a limiter would add latency to your signal. Limiters tend to be applied only to the main FOH sound system if there are any noise restrictions, but they don't add latency. Some engineers might compress their whole monitor mixes but that's not a very good idea. Individual channels would probably be compressed. Regardless, if there was any limiting being applied to your Axe (a stupid idea given that your modelled amp tone is already compressed in the preamp modelling), you would hear it clamp down on the sound when changing presets from quiet to louder patches.

I wonder if the engineer applied a short milisecond delay as an insert on your channel, thinking it would thicken the sound up, but set it 100% wet.

+ 1 for future gigs to use either IEMs or a power amp and cab. I can safely say as both a musician and FOH engineer that using house monitors for amp modellers isn't a good idea. Every monitor wedge will already have some heavy eq on it, specifically with some typical cuts in the lower and upper mid frequencies which are the most important for any guitar sound. So already your tone is being compromised by going through the house monitors. Running a power amp and cab is a must if you're not using IEMs. Or, if you're not singing any vocals, ask the engineer to run your wedge totally flat without anything added.

Thanks for the ideas. It was only me in the monitor and FOH. The rest of the band sounded spot on with no latency. I'm definitely going to use the IEMs after this. I don't know a ton about the setup there. We were 3rd of 5 bands with 10 mins to setup and "sound check" given to us.

 

[Luca9583]

Thanks for the ideas. It was only me in the monitor and FOH. The rest of the band sounded spot on with no latency. I'm definitely going to use the IEMs after this. I don't know a ton about the setup there. We were 3rd of 5 bands with 10 mins to setup and "sound check" given to us.

It must have been your channel on the desk then. Would be great if we could see the show file from the tech.