Latency to Front of House?

AnswerInfinity

AnswerInfinity

Inspired
I played a show last night where it was my first time gigging with the Axe FX 3. The other guitarist and I have been using Axe FX 2s for several years and scores of gigs with no problem ever. We both upgraded before this last show and I had a weird issue with noticeable latency for my sound. The other guitarist had no problem with his.

My wireless wasn't at this show, so we used a connector box to extend 2 1/4" cables to give me the reach to the 12U we keep the Fractals in. Could that have caused latency or should I be looking for something in how I set my new unit up to make sure it doesn't happen again at the next show? It's fine in the PA at rehearsal and I've never had anything like this happen. I had to have them take me out of all the stage monitors so I could just play "blind" and not struggle to stay in time.

FYI - We use no cabs on stage and go direct to FOH.
 
Sounds like FOH put some kind of delay on your monitor feed. Consider this: when they took you out of the monitor feed, the latency went away, and you could play in time just fine. So we know the problem isn’t on your end.
 
Almost every venue that knows what they are doing puts a limiter between you and a modeler. I haven't used my FM9 at a gig yet. I have used it plenty at rehearsals through our PA, but later this month will be my first gig with just my FM9, monitor and no amp thru a venue's FOH.

At the advice of friends, asking what the limiter options are (if any) is my plan. I plan to opt for a brick wall limiter if available - and hardware too if possible. Lots of stuff built into boards has plenty of latency - especially if they are adding a bunch of processing to other backline channels.
 
There could be a time delay on your monitor feed. Did you have other things running through your monitor that were in time? It sounds like a time delay (distance compensation) was going on though.

On the Axe side though. In the Axe did you have the pitch block set to no pitch change? That can also cause perceivable issues.

Rex Rox said:
Almost every venue that knows what they are doing puts a limiter between you and a modeler. I haven't used my FM9 at a gig yet. I have used it plenty at rehearsals through our PA, but later this month will be my first gig with just my FM9, monitor and no amp thru a venue's FOH.

At the advice of friends, asking what the limiter options are (if any) is my plan. I plan to opt for a brick wall limiter if available - and hardware too if possible. Lots of stuff built into boards has plenty of latency - especially if they are adding a bunch of processing to other backline channels.
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I have never seen a venue run a brick wall limiter on individual channels. Compression yes, but that would come after the modeler. More often I run into venues that run no compression whatsoever. Also running outboard compression could cause more latency issues because you would add a conversion from digital to analog and back to digital, rather than staying in the box.
 
There are a decent numbers of venues in my area (front range Colorado) that have an outboard rack with a stack of different limiters for different applications now. At least that is what I have been told by friends. The last time I played out was pre pandemic/lockdown (2018) - from back then I would agree with you - compressors only in my experience .

I am only going by what I have been told. I'm playing one venue later this month and the backline gear list they sent included 8 brick wall limiters. It doesn't specify whether those are outboard or inboard though so we'll see. If they are inboard then a brick wall might not help with latency depending on the load on the board. I would think if it says backline it means backline.
 
Rex said:
Sounds like FOH put some kind of delay on your monitor feed. Consider this: when they took you out of the monitor feed, the latency went away, and you could play in time just fine. So we know the problem isn’t on your end.
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The latency was going through the house speakers as well. I couldn't go near the front of the stage without fighting the "off time."

I certainly don't think there is something wrong with the Fractal here. I am wondering if it's possible I did something in my setup or if there is some aspect of which out gets used that I'm not familiar with.
 
Werpinater said:
There could be a time delay on your monitor feed. Did you have other things running through your monitor that were in time? It sounds like a time delay (distance compensation) was going on though.

On the Axe side though. In the Axe did you have the pitch block set to no pitch change? That can also cause perceivable issues.


I have never seen a venue run a brick wall limiter on individual channels. Compression yes, but that would come after the modeler. More often I run into venues that run no compression whatsoever. Also running outboard compression could cause more latency issues because you would add a conversion from digital to analog and back to digital, rather than staying in the box.
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There is a pitch block on my live rig but it's only flipped on for one scene. Never had any trouble with it at rehearsal, so I'm thinking that wouldn't be it.
 
I would have started a conversation with FOH about “Why is my feed coming back to me with a delay on it?”
 
Rex said:
I would have started a conversation with FOH about “Why is my feed coming back to me with a delay on it?”
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Tried to. It was one of those local, multi-band gigs with no sound check. We get on stage and have 5-10 mins to get sound and have to go and get a 30 min set done. So frustrating. That's why I was inquiring in here if there is a known setup type issue or anyone had experienced this, so I can mitigate it before the next one.
 
AnswerInfinity said:
There is a pitch block on my live rig but it's only flipped on for one scene. Never had any trouble with it at rehearsal, so I'm thinking that wouldn't be it.
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What mixer were they running? They might have thought they were adding a delay effect, but really adding time compensation delay.

Have you tried your Axe through another speaker since the gig?

Also you can try asking the sound tech to do a full reset of your channel and tell them you understand the consequences if they don’t spend time on your channel.
 
AnswerInfinity said:
Tried to. It was one of those local, multi-band gigs with no sound check. We get on stage and have 5-10 mins to get sound and have to go and get a 30 min set done. So frustrating. That's why I was inquiring in here if there is a known setup type issue or anyone had experienced this, so I can mitigate it before the next one.
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There’s really nothing you can do when the problem is at the FOH mixer and in the hands and head of the person running it.
 
AnswerInfinity said:
Tried to. It was one of those local, multi-band gigs with no sound check. We get on stage and have 5-10 mins to get sound and have to go and get a 30 min set done. So frustrating. That's why I was inquiring in here if there is a known setup type issue or anyone had experienced this, so I can mitigate it before the next one.
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No fun.

Still, the issue was caused by FOH, it was their responsibility to fix it, and there was nothing you could have done to prevent it.

It’s particulaly disturbing that the latency was also going to FOH. That means that there was no way your playing could have been in time. That’s an inexcusable thing to do to a band.

Consider carrying your own powered wedge so you can at least have competent sound on stage.
 
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Rex said:
It’s particulaly disturbing that the latency was also going to GOH. That means that there was no way your playing could have been in time. That’s an inexcusable thing to do to a band.
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About the only thing to do at that point is to move to the monitor of one of the other players, or stand right next to the drummer and play directly with them. Screw the house mix, just work as a team on stage.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
About the only thing to do at that point is to move to the monitor of one of the other players, or stand right next to the drummer and play directly with them. Screw the house mix, just work as a team on stage.
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Yup. And when the best you can get is “abandon FOH,” that’s about as bad as it gets.
 
There is the chance you could ask to try an empty channel. I have had some luck with that. On both sides, as a player and the sound tech. I’ve proven it’s the channel with issues while I’ve been playing and also “yes, the guitar is broken” or “yes the battery in your acoustic is dead” as the tech (it’s amazing how many people say their guitar is fine and it can’t be the guitar, has to be the DI, and they left the tuner on on their cheap acoustic and drained the battery, and changing the battery fixes the issue). But as a player I’ve seen the hesitancy to plug into a different channel, and then when it works the sound tech thank me because they now know what was causing the problem.

So it doesn’t hurt to ask if there is an empty channel you can try, and if they say no, roll with it to the best of your ability, but if they say yes, you can rule out one variable at least.
 
Werpinater said:
There is the chance you could ask to try an empty channel. I have had some luck with that. On both sides, as a player and the sound tech. I’ve proven it’s the channel with issues while I’ve been playing and also “yes, the guitar is broken” or “yes the battery in your acoustic is dead” as the tech (it’s amazing how many people say their guitar is fine and it can’t be the guitar, has to be the DI, and they left the tuner on on their cheap acoustic and drained the battery, and changing the battery fixes the issue). But as a player I’ve seen the hesitancy to plug into a different channel, and then when it works the sound tech thank me because they now know what was causing the problem.

So it doesn’t hurt to ask if there is an empty channel you can try, and if they say no, roll with it to the best of your ability, but if they say yes, you can rule out one variable at least.
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Oh yeah, I wished I thought of that! Very good advice, thanks.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
Anything approaching the size of a theater or larger, the sound coming back at me produces an unacceptable amount of delay/latency. Really the only cure is IEMs or a stage volume that washes it out and you are standing on top of a monitor.

Could this have been the issue?
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I wish the room was that big! =] Only holds about 350. We've played there before and I had no issues (AXE FX 2 on those gigs).
 
AnswerInfinity said:
I wish the room was that big! =] Only holds about 350. We've played there before and I had no issues (AXE FX 2 on those gigs).
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Have you considered IEMs? Ive had way too many soundguys that cant even successfully operate a urinal, much less any audio equipment. IEMs could be your ticket.
Then again, depending how you use them, you’d just be giving them one more thing to screw up. Only assurance is do your own sound.
 
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