Jay Mitchell and the power of flat response

Great advice!

This coincides with my recent thinking on the subject. I've had my Ultra for probably close to 3 years, and I know that it's capable, though I may not be so skilled at coercion.

I recently purchased a QSC K10 to begin experimenting in this world, and I want to be sure I know what I'm going for, what I'm hearing, and what I want to be hearing, before (and if) I decide to take that greater leap.

And if/when I do, it's a privilege to learn from the information that other folks have made available in this forum.

Jay Mitchell said:
I'll add one more cautionary note to Scott's excellent speaker-shopping advice. If you are not yet happy enough with the sounds you can get from your Axe-Fx to know you will be keeping it for the long term, if you're looking for that "something missing" to "warm up" (or "chill out") your sound, then you are not yet ready to begin obsessing over FRFR speakers. Keep in mind that Scott is a deeply schooled and experienced player and listener, has a very well-defined internalized concept of the sounds he wants to produce, and had succeeded in producing those sounds long before he ever heard my monitor. If you are looking for a speaker to fix "something wrong" with your sound, unless you are playing through a real POS and don't even have access to decent computer speakers, your problem is not being caused by your playback system.
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Jay Mitchell said:
What exactly do you mean by "specialize in flat response amplification?"

If you look, you will find lots of such recommendations. There is no consensus on the "best," however.

If the subject is that important to you, please start your own thread. This is not the place to discuss the issue.
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By experts, I am referring to someone who designs FRFR equipment, or understands what aspects of certain FRFR products would be best suited for the Axe Fx (possibly like yourself). The thread is focusing on flat response speakers, so I don't see where my post is not relavent.
 
This is an interesting thread that makes me wish I could directly compare high-end products.

Practically though, at gigs I play loud rock and use low-volume in-ear monitors with an excellent seal to protect my hearing. If I don't use IEMs, I always use earplugs. A high-end FRFR monitor for live use would be of limited value for me because of this. Why spend $3000 on a monitor when I'm going to stuff my ears with foam? I am also more concerned with the sound the audience is hearing than with the sound in my monitor. But I do see how those who play less sonorous styles or don't mind high SPL with no hearing protection would want such a product.

At home, I use middle-of-the-road studio monitors (JBL 6332). My guess (reiterate guess) is that they are comparable to something like scotts is using live. If so, I would REALLY like to hear Jay's monitor.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
Me, too. Otherwise, you'd be tempted to troll in FRFR threads that, under the present circumstances, are of no relevance to you.... :lol
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Damn Jay... you're so mean! Jerkules! ;) :D

It was actually quite refreshing to read the OP and see that Jay can actually be nice to someone... :D
 
m lebofsky said:
Actually, I modded my "real speakers" (Bogner OS 2/12) with Jay's foam doughnut trick to help with on-axis vs off-axis differences.
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Actually I did the same with a crummy powered wedge monitor with good results (the Kustom 12" discussed in other threads) and the same with a Peavey passive low-end wedge monitor also with good results.

With my Bag End floor wedges, (mid-range priced 1K a piece) the doughnut didn't improve things for me.

Richard
 
scotts said:
The difference was astonishing. My TCS sounded very good. Jay's monitor sounded incredible. There was a richness and natural fullness to the mids that I didn't know was missing until I played through a high end truly flat response system. When playing through the Frazier the articulation and detail of the Axe's ambient effects was stunning. I heard beautiful detail in the delay and reverb trails that were simply not there with my TCS cabinet. For the first time I really heard what the Axe can do.

This was not an issue of some subtle nuance or a matter of preference like with traditional guitar cabinets. No guitar oriented tweakery is present in Jay's design. This was an issue of how well the Axe can perform when it is paired with a cabinet and amplifier that meets the fixed and non-negotiable standard of Full Range Flat Response.

We played Saturday night with a drummer and bassist. I had my usual very good tone. But now I'm completely screwed. I have a new standard in my ear/mind. For the first time I have heard what the Axe can do with a properly designed seriously high end FRFR system and it is amazing.
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It sounds like you feel that the superior response of this type of cab will translate to the stage. Have you had a chance to try it in a gig setting since your OP?

You definitely won't hear reverb tails etc. live. What do you think will be the improvement in that setting?
 
geetarded said:
It sounds like you feel that the superior response of this type of cab will translate to the stage.
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We both "feel" that way, and we both have decades of stage experience. More than enough to be well aware of the threshold of detectability of sonic differences in live performance settings.

The difference would easily be audible to an untrained listener in the audience, let alone to an experienced player. You're not reading the enthusiastic ravings of some audiphool wannabe performers here. I had hoped that much would have been clear by now.
 
barhrecords said:
Actually I did the same with a crummy powered wedge monitor with good results (the Kustom 12" discussed in other threads)
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Then the speaker's crossover frequency - assuming there is a crossover present - is far too high.

and the same with a Peavey passive low-end wedge monitor also with good results.
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Ditto.

With my Bag End floor wedges, (mid-range priced 1K a piece) the doughnut didn't improve things for me.
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Which would indicate that, at least in the case of selecting a crossover frequency, the person who engineered this product had something resembling a clue. :)
 
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I agree on all counts Jay :) I was just tickled I could make a < 100 $ powered speaker even usable!

And it was also cool to try such a mod based on something so cheap to implement but proven effective in a laboratory setting (by you). I can tell you the gain before feedback and the harshness were remarkably better.

Richard
 
(geetarded) You definitely won't hear reverb tails etc. live. What do you think will be the improvement in that setting?
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I do 90% of my band-type playing in a trio format in venues where my sound system is all that I use. In these situations my FRFR cabs function as my back line as well as feed the venue. I use patches that range from very clean and super ambient to mild crunch and drive tones. I have reverb running all the time as well as parallel chorused delay on both clean and drive patches. Some of my special patches employ heavy ambient and modulatory effects. Being able to hear and enjoy the ambient detail in my patches is very important to me. I am a grease junky. Always have been.

My entire presentation in this post has been in reference to the overwhelmingly positive effect of high end FRFR in live playing venues at band volume. Even if you like your tone dry as a bone, and especially if you play loud and/or in a sonically congested environment, high quality cabinets will, among other things, keep the dreaded sonic fatigue demons from getting to you or your band mates.
 
scotts said:
If an Axe user brings that mentality to FRFR things get interesting. The better (read: flatter, more transparent, etc.) the FRFR cabinet you purchase the more you will hear damn near exactly what you programmed into the Axe.

~With a FRFR system of high enough quality plus the Axe, if you don't experience excellent results, it then becomes solely an end user issue. For me, this is the way I want things. When I settle on a high end solution the only variables in the equation will be my central nervous system and my ego.

Na-Na Na/Na/Na Na-Na No-o... ...nobody's fault but mine.
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This is perhaps another way of saying that FRFR is not for the average guitarist who just wants to plug straight into their favorite tube amp, leave the knobs set in one position for every song, and play all night without having to think any further about their tone or how they come by it. I've read countless threads in other forums in which the virtues of well-known, iconic tube amps that magically produce "perfect tone" right out of the box and with minimal user interaction are touted and spouted and regarded as delivering the purest, most ideal guitar playing experience on heaven and earth. The expectation seems to be that with the right amp, no effort is necessary (or even should be necessary) on the part of the user.

Contrast this with the Axe-FX in general, and FRFR in particular, which demands much from the user in order to get optimal results. I too am of the school of thought that I want to be the limiting factor not the tools I use. I figure I will always get better at this, and I don't want my tools becoming an obstacle. But there seem to be a lot of guitarists who expect their instruments to do all the work of providing perfect tone for them (which is probably why they spend so much time and money constantly in search for a better guitar and a better amp than the one(s) they already have--they haven't figured out yet that the source of the problem isn't their gear, but themselves).
 
Jay Mitchell said:
We both "feel" that way, and we both have decades of stage experience. More than enough to be well aware of the threshold of detectability of sonic differences in live performance settings.

The difference would easily be audible to an untrained listener in the audience, let alone to an experienced player. You're not reading the enthusiastic ravings of some audiphool wannabe performers here. I had hoped that much would have been clear by now.
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Well, I don't know you, or anyone else on this forum for that matter with regards to ears, taste, or whether their experience as a player is anything similar to mine.
scotts said:
I do 90% of my band-type playing in a trio format in venues where my sound system is all that I use. In these situations my FRFR cabs function as my back line as well as feed the venue. I use patches that range from very clean and super ambient to mild crunch and drive tones. I have reverb running all the time as well as parallel chorused delay on both clean and drive patches. Some of my special patches employ heavy ambient and modulatory effects. Being able to hear and enjoy the ambient detail in my patches is very important to me. I am a grease junky. Always have been.

My entire presentation in this post has been in reference to the overwhelmingly positive effect of high end FRFR in live playing venues at band volume. Even if you like your tone dry as a bone, and especially if you play loud and/or in a sonically congested environment, high quality cabinets will, among other things, keep the dreaded sonic fatigue demons from getting to you or your band mates.
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More the answer I was looking for. Thank you. I prefer traditional cabinets right now but I'm not married to them. Always interested in new developments.
 
geetarded said:
Well, I don't know you, or anyone else on this forum for that matter with regards to ears, taste, or whether their experience as a player is anything similar to mine.
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Google "Jay Mitchell Speaker Directivity"....and read some of his articles.
 
Anybody ever buy from http://www.soundbroker.com?

Also, what is the general opinion on DSP to achieve flat response - e.g. the EAW NT series? Is this a shortcut, or worse, a counterfeit of what can and should be achieved via other means? Or is it a preferred practice for high end self-powered systems?
 
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