I've had a change of heart about the Mark IV sim

J

james...

Experienced
You know guys, as a rule I stay away from anything 6L6. Nothing about them gets along with my desired tone. Relaxed mids? ew. Booming bass? Don't want it. Sizzly highs? bleh. I even had my reservations about the CAE lead model simply because it uses a Mesa poweramp sim. But I couldn't keep away. It was too toneful. But in general, I stick to the EL84 and EL34 sims. Even for my high gain stuff.

But you guys are always talking about how awesome the USA lead sims on this baby are. On occasion I'll dial one in, play through it a little. Then decide the 6L6's aren't for me. And sort of put it to bed. But today I said to myself...you know what...I'm going to try USA Lead 1 again. Why not? Everyone has been hippity hoppity about the Mark V lately. Might as well.

Dialed it in. Popped the EQ in there. Gave it some pretty typical settings. Well gee. It's actually pretty awesome for teh high gains. Not subtle by any means. It's a very refined lead sound. Hard to control at times, but very articulate. Hard to balance the bass and treble, but when I got it right...it worked.

And one thing that's so funny to me about the Mark amps... Even with the mids super scooped in the EQ, the amp still manages to be fairly middy. (or at least appears to be since it cuts through).

I compared it to my current high gain patch I'm using (sparingly) which is an Uber sim. The Uber just sounded muddy and undefined by comparison. So I think I'll be using the Mark now.

One thing I hate though. The bass is so hard to get dialed in perfect. I'll be soloing and the amp is too thin. But then I turn the bass up, and it becomes boomy when I play chords. It's hard to find a balance.
 
james... said:
You know guys, as a rule I stay away from anything 6L6. Nothing about them gets along with my desired tone. Relaxed mids? ew. Booming bass? Don't want it. Sizzly highs? bleh. I even had my reservations about the CAE lead model simply because it uses a Mesa poweramp sim. But I couldn't keep away. It was too toneful. But in general, I stick to the EL84 and EL34 sims. Even for my high gain stuff.

But you guys are always talking about how awesome the USA lead sims on this baby are. On occasion I'll dial one in, play through it a little. Then decide the 6L6's aren't for me. And sort of put it to bed. But today I said to myself...you know what...I'm going to try USA Lead 1 again. Why not? Everyone has been hippity hoppity about the Mark V lately. Might as well.

Dialed it in. Popped the EQ in there. Gave it some pretty typical settings. Well gee. It's actually pretty awesome for teh high gains. Not subtle by any means. It's a very refined lead sound. Hard to control at times, but very articulate. Hard to balance the bass and treble, but when I got it right...it worked.

And one thing that's so funny to me about the Mark amps... Even with the mids super scooped in the EQ, the amp still manages to be fairly middy. (or at least appears to be since it cuts through).

I compared it to my current high gain patch I'm using (sparingly) which is an Uber sim. The Uber just sounded muddy and undefined by comparison. So I think I'll be using the Mark now.

One thing I hate though. The bass is so hard to get dialed in perfect. I'll be soloing and the amp is too thin. But then I turn the bass up, and it becomes boomy when I play chords. It's hard to find a balance.
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I owned a mark iv before owning the axe fx, Its a VERY middy amp, And i think thats why people use the V shape in the EQ to make it more Balanced, I love Mids, So i Had a mountain shape for my Eq and was in love with the sound trying to get close to the sound i had with my mark iv and im almost there :D
 
Uncontrolled mids and bass always takes me away from that sim too. Mids too nasal, Bass too wild...only in rhythm tho, lead sounds pretty tasty.

I should have the patience to dial it in, but just flat out don't. On the other hand, that 'early carlos' preset kind of works for me in certain circumstances. When I have to pound out some 'Europa'....
 
electronpirate said:
Uncontrolled mids and bass always takes me away from that sim too. Mids too nasal, Bass too wild...only in rhythm tho, lead sounds pretty tasty.

I should have the patience to dial it in, but just flat out don't. On the other hand, that 'early carlos' preset kind of works for me in certain circumstances. When I have to pound out some 'Europa'....
Click to expand...

Try changing the tone stack position from pre to post (after distortion) - less mids & tighter bass! :shock: :cool: :shock:
 
The Mark series have lots of mids because the tone-stack is "pre". As Radley said you can move it to post but it will change the feel. The pre- position is what gives you that singing lead tone and sustain. As with the real thing, the rule of thumb is to set the bass pretty low. You can add it back in with EQ after. The kids all do the "V" EQ but I use very little EQ. I happen to like lots of mids as it makes the tone fit in the mix better.
 
And try it with a band. Sometimes the sounds that works when your alone, will not sound as good with a band.... IMO
 
I'm use the Mark IV sim for just about everything except for cleans. I owned two Mark IVs before and for me it's THE guitar amp. I'd like to point out that Tony Levin uses a Mark IV with his chapman stick. Anyways the sims works just like the real amp does... I have BASS at 1, MID at 5, TREBLE at 8. The sim actually has I bit more gain than the real amp so I have GAIN at 7. It's a really good metal tone. Then again if play something like Paramore or poprock I just lower the gain by taste and the tone ALWAYS WORKS! IMHO the best cab for it is the CALI CAB. It's a simple patch but it works amazingly well.

I'm not using the V-shape EQ... I've got a subtle 2-3dB scoop when recording but it's not essential. The Mark IV head has 6L6s but to me this Mark IV sim sounds more like it has the outer sockets changed to EL34s which is the normal METAL setup. Does anyone have any info about this?
 
This thread inspired me to give USA Lead 1 another shot and it was worth it. I got to a nice tight chunky riffing tone going and chunked along happily for the last, what, hour or so? I usually go with Das Metall for hi gain, but that's a great alternative to have.

Now if only I could make some sense of that Wrecker sim... I've heard great things but haven't managed such great tones yet.
 
I used to own a Mark II B, and I've played through plenty of Mark IV amps, and yeah, the setup and how to manipulate these things can be kind of difficult to figure out at first. I've found they operate slightly differently from other amps.

The key to understanding it is that, like Cliff said, the eq is pre-distortion, and it's very sensitive. If you turn the bass knob much past 3 or 4, then a lot more bass is introduced into the part of the signal that goes on to be distorted, and so things get flubby and mushy really fast. The EQ controls on a Mark series amp aren't really meant to control the true output EQ like they are on most amps. The EQ controls on a Mark series amp are there to tailor the distortion characteristics more than anything else. It's actually more intuitive to think of Mark series EQ knobs as separate distortion customization controls. Do you want more a more treble focused distortion characteristic or do you want the majority of the distortion characteristics to happen in the mid frequencies, etc.? Or, do you want to set up a sloppier, bass centered distortion?

The best (and most balanced) high gain settings I've heard on Mark amps come from setting the mids and treble somewhere between 6 and 9, and the bass at 2-4. Then, the graphic EQ is used as the more traditional "EQing" device (to both tailor the eq to the player's liking and to bring down some of those overpowering mids :mrgreen: ).
 
I find the reference to sloppy bass with respect to 6l6's odd. I prefer 6l6's for some heavy tones. To my ear they are harder and tighter than EL34s, which can get soft and squishy but have a smoother overdrive. Try slamming the neck pickup of a strat with an EL34 amp; much harder to get that "clang". And any amp can get flubby in the bass, depending on what you feed to the power stage and what the low-cut characteristics of the power stage are . Regarding mark sounds, all old boogie users know not to feed too much bass in those puppies! Even the mark manuals recommend bass on about "3" for lead channels. As noted, you then get your booty back with an eq in the path.
 
I think it goes like this: 6L6 = American tone, EL34 = British tone. I'm not saying that these tubes were created in these countries but the brit amps usually have ELs and US amps got 6L6s. After that it's all about taste. Mark IV has the outer socket thingy so it uses both 6L6s and EL34s so that might be the reason it's so popular... it's in between.

Most people try Mesa amps and can't tweak 'em right and all they get out of them are muddy tones. Keep the bass low... although I had a cool setting on my Roadster where I put the bass full, mids around 11 o'clock and treble at 3 o'clock. You could never hear the bass player after this but DAMN!!! It sounded angry as hell! :) Not sure how it works with the Axe-Fx though since I'm sure it had something to do with the tubes. Tremonti uses his triple recto with BASS full too.

I must've said this a million times already but I had bass at 1-2 with my real Mark IV too and it had more than enough bass.

I guess the V-scoopage has something to do with age since I'm not using it anymore and back in the day I used to pull the 750hz knob all the way down. http://www.myspace.com/fishdoll <--- this is one of my bands and we used my ex-Mark IV with extreme scoopage. The sound is quite cold to me but it has more than enough mids to cut in a mix. :)
 
so which amp model are we talking about here? What's the name of the amp on the Axe-Fx UI? I want to try it.
 
jerotas said:
so which amp model are we talking about here? What's the name of the amp on the Axe-Fx UI? I want to try it.
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USA Lead 1 = Mark IV (Lead Channel)- This is the amp sim the thread starter is referring to.

USA Lead 2 = Triaxis (Lead 2 Yellow)


They sound very similar though and the suggested settings in this thread apply to both (and to the pair of USA MIIC+ sims as well).
 
Regarding roadsters and other recto-line amps, this is a totally different preamp, tone stack, and power amp. Recto amps can have their bass cranked to high heaven. This is also true of the recto channel on the triaxis. Of note, the triaxis lead 1 red (recto) never quite sounds like a real recto in part because boogie's rackmount poweramps tend to follow more of a "mark" formula, but it's still a very cool sound. I think the Nomad waded into this territory, similar preamp to a recto in the high-gain channel but definitely a fendery/marky power stage. Interesting dirty sound similar to a triaxis recto patch, clean channel was uber-glassy. Those amps never really caught on.

It's the mark I-V amps and the related markoids (lonestar, sob, caliber series, heartbreaker, etc. etc.) that follow the "keep the bass low" rule.

The whole midrange-hump thing in the mark series (in my view) is to try to emulate a cranked fender-style amp without getting the power tubes hot. The bedroom tones of the mark series basically give you the high-end rollof and accentuated mids that you would get with an overdriven 6l6 amp (or any vintage tube amp, really, that's what happens when you crank 'em). But you also get the same bass "farting out" thing if you don't watch your preamp settings. Mark boogies sound best with the power tubes warm but not clipping; you lose a lttle of the buzziness at higher volume and they get creamier like an overdriven tweed or blackface. But once you get the power tubes really hot, you need to back way off on the preamp gain, and the same is true for the boogie sims in the axe-fx. Don't set the master dimed then try to crank the preamp also, it doesn't work any better than with the real thing. But master at 5-8 will give you the famous creamy boogie tones.
 
Sadly, with my triaxis my favorite patch was lead 1 red which Cliff didn't clone. It's supposed to be recto, but as noted above was somewhat different. I used it unusually, with the gain low to moderate, dynamic voice activated and the mids cranked. (I'd morph it to a lead sound with a controller, bringing drive and gain up some). Unorthodox setting, and I have yet to duplicate it in the axe-fx. (Any help would be appreciated!!!!!).Tons of gain, but still incredible string-to-string clarity. Sounded great with hummers or singles. Could use bridge or neck pickup on any guitar with no farting. And tons of palm-mute sensitivity but articulate at the same time. Very cool sound. There's a bit of an example here on "neon alley", the stratty sounds:

www.myspace.com/jpulcini
That's neck pickup of an ash strat with a lace sensor as I recall, and the mids were actually set rather low.


In the live clips on the outdoor stage here, I'm using the patch with hummers, with the mids cranked:

www.myspace.com/ice9sa
The outdoor clips are triaxis, indoor are the axe-fx. Haven't updated this in forever, sorry.

Forgive the less than stellar playing, I talk better than I play, but I do get pretty good tones.
 
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