Is someone experiencing student loan hardship if they can afford an Axe-Fx?

[paranoid]

I was thinking this post and survey was about the students that can not pay there debit and feel they have been swindled and want the government to erase there debit. That is were the link went. I don't see any thing wrong with any one having tons of expensive things, and debit as long as they pay there bills!!!! that is what freedom is all about!!!

 

[selta]

Moot points, all of them. There's nothing inherently wrong with managing debt over time and that's what he's doing here. There's nothing abnormally wrong with not plowing all your available money in to debt repayment. Scorning someone for not plowing 100% of their money to debt repayment is absurd.

I agree with what you're saying. With that said, the article is about a mass of students - a growing mass, mind you - is seeking debt relief from the government precisely because they are not (for whatever reason) managing their debts. That places the burden on the taxpayers. With something like $1.2 trillion out there in the balance, and several million students in default or worse, this is a serious problem.

In the past six months, more than 7,500 borrowers owing $164 million have applied to have their student debt expunged under an obscure federal law that had been applied only in three instances before last year.

I don't know Mr. Andrade's situation - the article doesn't specify. If he's managing his debt, then great. Buy whatever he wants, so long as it doesn't become my problem later.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

Moot points, all of them. There's nothing inherently wrong with managing debt over time and that's what he's doing here. There's nothing abnormally wrong with not plowing all your available money in to debt repayment. Scorning someone for not plowing 100% of their money to debt repayment is absurd.

Unfortunately, interest exists. The longer you delay, the more you're paying. To not pay off loans immediately is to simply increase the cost of the loans. Sure, you may prioritise toys above that, but don't pretend like you aren't bearing the cost - and people tend not to account for the delayed payments and residual interest they pay on top of the cost of their toy.

Since no one is managing the system as a whole, it's very easy for the money to be spent on education that has little or no market value when the student finally completes their degree. Kids, being kids, frequently make wrong decisions about what field to go into. The system has no mechanism turn job market projections into college intake quotas, and the loans system is generally very punitive toward students who dare change their minds especially after finishing a degree they find isn't as valuable as they've been lead to believe.

It's just one of those things we don't do so well in North America...

Don't fall for the command economy lure. There's a reason the Soviet Empire crumbled, there's a reason Xiaoping's market reforms led to HUGE increases in the standard of living in China - you cannot control the lives of so many people. You cannot control complex systems, because knowledge about the intricate details of the various symbiotic factors is inherently decentralised - every person understands their position better than anyone else, but even expert knowledge cannot consolidate into a small enough group to effectively command something.

"The system" works when it is left alone - degrees that don't result in jobs won't hang around for long. And you cannot anticipate new technologies and demands... So they may even become viable career paths again in ten years or something.

It's nice to think we can tinker, but we cannot possibly with any accuracy.

 

[iaresee]

I agree with what you're saying. With that said, the article is about a mass of students - a growing mass, mind you - is seeking debt relief from the government precisely because they are not (for whatever reason) managing their debts. That places the burden on the taxpayers. With something like $1.2 trillion out there in the balance, and several million students in default or worse, this is a serious problem.

Right, but the debt they seek to escape is absurdist debt. Literally inescapable. Something America hasn't had in a very long time. For any other debt like this they'd nice through the motions of bankruptcy and then get on with their life.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, right?

 

[jimfist]

I'm not unsympathetic to the young guy pictured that has the $30k in debt. A few years ago I got some additional computer network training classes from a place that later lost a misrepresentation class-action lawsuit, subsequently going out of business. I was lucky that I bailed at the half-way point and it only cost me $14k and being very pissed off at the smoke show that I was sold. Others completed the training and were stuck paying Sallie Mae $28k, all for the privilege of being qualified to do help desk work at entry level pay. Total B.S.

Anyhoo, as a mid-twenties aged person, I would think that with some frugality and determination, and a smidge of luck, even a menial $10/hr job, working hard at 50+ hours per week, the finances could be made to work. But if you're not willing to accept eating any shitburgers along the way, then I don't know what to say. That's life in the big city. Either take control of your life and get on with it, or don't.

Now, if you're going to a 4 year college to the tune of $100k+ in loans, you'd damn well better know what your prospects for employment are WAAAY before starting your second semester attending. If you don't then you're asking for trouble. JMHO.

 

[coldstar]

Don't fall for the command economy lure. There's a reason the Soviet Empire crumbled, there's a reason Xiaoping's market reforms led to HUGE increases in the standard of living in China - you cannot control the lives of so many people. You cannot control complex systems, because knowledge about the intricate details of the various symbiotic factors is inherently decentralised - every person understands their position better than anyone else, but even expert knowledge cannot consolidate into a small enough group to effectively command something.

"The system" works when it is left alone - degrees that don't result in jobs won't hang around for long. And you cannot anticipate new technologies and demands... So they may even become viable career paths again in ten years or something.

It's nice to think we can tinker, but we cannot possibly with any accuracy.

How can I respond, but to say: don't fall for the false dichotomy of thinking that the only available options are a wild west of total deregulation or rigid, innovation-crushing Stalinism. Virtually every education system in the world exists somewhere between these two extremes, and every government inevitably ends up administering a complex education system. If you're saying governments can only administer such a system so badly that we'd all be better off if they didn't at all, I would point to some number of Nordic folks whose experience would suggest otherwise.

I'm certainly not suggesting that federal governments ought to impose hard quotas on program admissions - I think nearly everyone would agree everyone would agree that would be a disaster. At the same time, it's not as though labour market experts have no idea what degrees will be in demand five years from now. A subsidy program makes a lot of sense to me - you subsidize tuition more on degrees that are expected to be in demand in five years, less on the ones you don't. We have piecemeal system like this for the trades here in British Columbia, but it's very limited.

Federations seems to have particular problems coming up with rational ways to fund education. In every example I can think of, the state or provincial branch gets to set education policy, but most of the taxation authority is at the federal level. So you've got the feds trying to address public anxiety over education (chasing votes) by pumping money into a system they have very little control over.

 

[selta]

Right, but the debt they seek to escape is absurdist debt. Literally inescapable. Something America hasn't had in a very long time. For any other debt like this they'd nice through the motions of bankruptcy and then get on with their life.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, right?

It's not inescapable. Let's set aside for the minute that they can elect to not put themselves into the hole in the first place. Even then, when you have these massive student loans (mine were in the area of about $100k when I was done. Yes, $100,000 US dollars), you have not only many years and low payments to make, if you fall off the bandwaggon and work with the lender, they will work with you. They want their money, as the debt will only get them a few pennies on the dollar if sold or taxpayers pick up the burder, whereas keeping the borrower looped in will net them more.
It can be argued one way or the other if the debt is absurdist or not. In some cases, most likely. In others, pursuing an underwater weaving degree probably just isn't a good choice, no matter what institute a person goes to for that.

The thing about a mortgage, car payment, or credit cards is... if you go under (bankrupt), you lose your house, your car, your credit score and ability to buy things without cash in hand. All personal consequences for personal decisions. While not good by any means, it's not placing the burden on other folk. The rest of the social safety nets in place will catch these people and allow them to rebuild (in theory).

$1.2 Trillion isn't a small number (in fact, a little less than 10% of the US's GDP!). The last figure I saw was that greater than 10% of borrowers are defaulting on their loans - $120 billion dollars (this was in 2013); that would increase our deficit by >20%.

Trust me, I emphasize with people who have degrees that are worth nothing more than the paper they're printed on. I'm in a similar situation - I've never put my degrees on my resume even. It sucked, but it was all my decision, and I wasn't about to have everyone else pick up the tab by walking away from it.

 

[NeoSound]

Things are different today than they were five years ago, they will be different in five more years. What many of you have done in the past doesn't really work now. There's too much competition for the few jobs that are out there.

If I'm sitting on a $30 million inheritance and it's marketed to me that a student loan and education are the way its done, then I make great effort that fails. Do I owe them what I have? or should my debt be attached to what they've sold me?

I agree with everyone that the student has responsibility, but the schools/government does also. This has happened so often it's not as if they can't see it coming, still everyone participates.

 

[jimfist]

This all seems to be a case of educated people who have no common sense...dumb smart people.

 

[Rick]

It's not inescapable. ...they can elect to not put themselves into the hole in the first place.

This is it. What is your word worth?

 

[thewizardguy]

Went to a $5500 2 month web dev boot camp. Part of 2 startups, one about to be very successful, with a few outright job offers and many more job interview offers. In college after 2 months I had just found out what my professors wanted me to write about to get a grade, instead of what I actually thought.

College is worthless now (with the exception of specific engineering degrees).