I'm Just Going to Leave This Here

When you actually think about it, the Axe II plus a cheap midi controller is actually very easy to justify, even for the amateur or even beginner guitar player.
Stompboxes nowadays have gotten ridicolously expensive (in europe, at least). And so did cables and amplifiers (if you want tube, that is).

When I purchased the Axe, I did some pre-calculations about what I would need to buy instead to break even. And that was much less than you would initially think.
Just two quality budget amps (one for distortion, one for crunch/clean) alone sum up to 1500€ easily (I selected a Marshall 50 Watt head and a nice and sweet ENGL head combined with a budget 4x12 cab). Add in the tremendous cost for at least one delay and reverb pedal, and you hover somewhere around 2000€ already.
Add in an EQ, a drive, a fuzz, a chorus and a phaser/flanger, such as cables to patch everything up (2 quality long cables, a bunch of patch cables) and you easily touch the 2500€ mark already - and that only considering mid-quality pedals, avoiding the overpriced BOSS stomps.
That's still a gap of like 800€ if we take the MFC and expression pedals instead of using a budget midi controller. But I think that is a reasonable investment for the reduced luggage, no more issues with faulty cables and no more volume issues because your amp sounds shit at low master volume.

The Axe II is a damn good deal, even for those that only need one or two amp sounds and just basic effects. Even affordable starter gear at decent quality is expensive nowadays.

I would not have made the earlier comment if I hadn't seen numerous people state that they just couldn't justify the price. Hell, I had trouble justifying the cost myself, but I did the research and when it came down to it I think it's the best gear purchase I've ever made. $2500 USD (about the lowest your going to have to spend for an Axe-FX II and a cheap MIDI controller) is a lot of money to a lot of people - especially considering they could get a modeller that' "sounds close enough" for around 1/4 of that. I think we sometimes to forget that most of us here are obviously making pretty good money.
 
Yeah, the decision will be to sell it at a lower price with only a few built-in models and then get people to upgrade or sell it at a higher price with all the models. There are pros and cons for each.

People had to get mad and complain enough for Eventide to eventually give in and offer H9MAX, which wasn't available from the start. H9MAX comes fully loaded + future updates. Quote from TGP..

Amen. I've been bitching and begging and finally Eventide did what they should have done from the start. I'm in. Listen to customers, get sales. Kudos on Eventide.

Additionally, they had to come up with their Max'd Out thing to appease customers who had bought a lesser version before the Mx came out.
 
Not like my opinion matters much in the grand scheme of things but I despise "in app purchases."

It's a concept that does one thing and that is "rip people off for mass profit."

+100,000

It's a business model I greatly dislike and almost never buy into.




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Gee... I wonder what view Chris has on this topic.... lol.

It will be interesting to see where Cliff and FAS take this.

However, my opinion remains the same.

I will not even consider a piece of gear that is "add on" driven for profit. And then what's next? Charging for Updates and new features? How about the community? Kind of hard to share patches if you don't have the same amp/feature set as everyone else.

If you look at it with $$ in your eyes only then ya, you could easily bleed people and make a killing... this is what all the other consumer grade companies are doing and competing for.

I'm glad I got my fully featured and complete Axe FX II.
 
I would not be a big fan of a subscription model. Would rather just buy the unit at the top price with everything included.
I already have these amp models in my axefx XL. I just wanted a simple unit for fly gigs. There is now a major fly in the ointment.
What happens if it gets corrupted while away in tour? I really don't want to be messing around authorising something. It may not even be possible at certain gigs. This is supposed to turn on and be used in place of an amp. It should not be treated like a computer. As soon as you enter that realm, you will alienate people. I have been there and done the line6 thing on an acoustic tour with one of their interfaces acting as a dongle on a MacBook Pro. Thought it was a good idea until it all needed reinstalling and re authorising at a gig. Never again. It has sat on a shelf in my studio ever since. It was loaded with everything they sold and I have no interest in ever using it again.
Don't go down this route. It's not pleasant.
Unless you are going for the same price point as line6, don't drag everyone into their way of working. People put up with the line6 packs because the unit is cheap.
Might as well put an ilock2 socket in the back. That would be just as popular :)
 
Yeah, the decision will be to sell it at a lower price with only a few built-in models and then get people to upgrade or sell it at a higher price with all the models. There are pros and cons for each.

Does Line6 still do this? I think the XT you could buy model packs for like $50 or something. Do they do this with the HD?

I vote for lower price with add-on packs, and I'll tell you why with a story. The other guitarist in our worship band uses a POD HD500 (we both used to use real amps, then XT Live, etc.). He has been fine with it until now. His ear is now growing to the point where he is not satisfied with the POD tone. He likes the sound of my Axe Fx, but it is way out of his price range. He would buy a lower cost Axe in a heartbeat I believe. I bet there are people like this all over the world that would jump on the chance to get even just a few great sounding amps, with plans to buy amp packs as needed and as they can afford. Remember, a lot of people aren't good at saving money (whether their fault or not).

To address the idea that people spending $500 expect great tone with no tweaking or knowledge - have you heard an HD500 out of the box? Have you tried to program one? I'm a pretty smart guy and I thought it was a pain. Plus, I think any stock preset Cliff and crew put in the floor axe will sound way better than a POD.
 
Agreed. I've never been a big fan of this model. Though with a ballooning payroll I can see the attraction.

I suppose I could live with a MIN and MAX model. But if I need to buy everything a few at a time I won't be buying.


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Just my $0.02, IF this a la carte model is the direction Cliff decides to go, I'd like to see a drop down menu to hand pick the included amp models... maybe set a minimum upon purchase to negate some of the variable cost? Like, users must pick "X" # of effects & amps, then increase the base factory direct cost (since most users would be mostly satisfied with their choices at the onset), and offer a one time discount rate when it's ordered to add more models/effects?
 
Gee... I wonder what view Chris has on this topic.... lol.

:) it's not about my view or opinion though. i'm just sharing my experience in the MI industry with a company who primarily deals in the high-end only. i'm sure they have knowledge too, but i'm sharing what i may know with a company i appreciate.

I bet there are people like this all over the world that would jump on the chance to get even just a few great sounding amps, with plans to buy amp packs as needed and as they can afford.
this is a great thing for the customer, but if FAS simply drops the price for more people to buy it (making less money on the unit itself) and then people DON'T buy additional amp packs, FAS will lose money. that's not good for anyone.
 
What can stop people buying the unloaded cheap version and pirating all the add-on model packs?

The correct answer is 'nothing'. But some will argue DRM, and some would go ahead and RUIN an otherwise good product by bolting on all kinds of complex, functionality restricting DRM code. In the end crackers will break it anyway and legit customers still have a much worse user experience, on top of the bad feeling they get knowing pirates are getting it all for free.

Are you guys familiar with the Keurig (coffee machines) DRM fiasco? What a ridiculous joke that is.. don't even go there Cliff!
 
Agreed. I've never been a big fan of this model. Though with a ballooning payroll I can see the attraction.

Don't do it Cliff!!! I can't think of a single instance where this model hasn't felt like a quick money-grab scheme that just makes the company look cheap or greedy.

If you wanted to sell add-ons, my dream would be if you instead built a SDK/API and get other people and companies to build plugins to the Axe Fx 2/Fx8/Ax8. These would be loaded similar to IR slots and selectable in the grid. You could then sell these through the Fractal Store and take something like 30%. This would bring additional profits to you without something that looked like a cheap money grab. It would open up the ever expanding FAS market to companies like Strymon, Eventide and we'd surely see some new people inventing new and wonderful effects. And it would expand the units for us users and not subtract from the experience. Most likely more work now, but I'd say better invested time than removing functionality that would be added with license updates.

Pretty please, with sugar on top!!!
 
"you could easily bleed people and make a killing..."
That would be the perception FAS would have to fight against (even if it isn't remotely true) if they chose that model.

I think it's very hard to convince users that software or upgrades cost the developers/company money. Most don't care. They dissociate the cost of physical tangible things from fairly intangible things like software (which ironically cost the company more in most circumstances)

You gotta realize that new buyers are the ones subsidizing the development cost for the old owners.
If there was no growth in the company, do you really think FAS would keep churning those massive updates for free?
Sure some of that is included in the original cost but as an old Engineering teacher once told us - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (good ol' TANSTAAFL principle)
 
Whether we like the subscription model or not, one thing is certain - lots of software needs to be developed to enable all of this up and down the stack. So unless they've already built all the infrastructure into their web service, firmware, axe-edit, etc. it will delay the release of the product substantially to add a subscription model.

And then Cliff has to balance the sales gains vs. the increased support costs - this is pretty much guaranteed to generate support calls/e-mails.
 
What can stop people buying the unloaded cheap version and pirating all the add-on model packs?

The correct answer is 'nothing'. But some will argue DRM, and some would go ahead and RUIN an otherwise good product by bolting on all kinds of complex, functionality restricting DRM code. In the end crackers will break it anyway and legit customers still have a much worse user experience, on top of the bad feeling they get knowing pirates are getting it all for free.

Are you guys familiar with the Keurig (coffee machines) DRM fiasco? What a ridiculous joke that is.. don't even go there Cliff!
Agreed on all counts.
If FAS can't protect themselves, then I think we can all agree it's a non-starter.
 
I guess I just don't get the "money grab scheme" thing, most likely because I spend half of my time designing control circuits and the other half programming. So I personally get that programming is expensive, but I suppose that the average Joe may not.
 
I think it would be great to see Fractal bring forth a new flagship to the Axe FX2 XL. Albeit in a floor board multi FX "all in one" unit. Heck, I'd even say even more powerful. Could you imagine the power of an Axe FX 2 XL in a floor board, if not a little more. Could be a serious contender for my money. No need for a midi pedal. Couple of ext. switches and a couple EV-1's. Put some switchable loops on that bad boy. It would literally be the KING of all multi FX boards.
 
If there was a clean separation of content vs. algo's in the firmware such that new efx and new amps were more like new cab IR's, i.e. content and not bug fixes, then I could see charging for content.

The Fractal community already has the option to pay for new IR's, why not for new amps or new efx?
 
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