If you're not FRFR...

jamn4jc

jamn4jc

Experienced
I want to tie up some loose ends around my understanding of FRFR and what other options are our there. I also want to understand how the Matrix Amps (e.g. GT800FX) are being used and whether or not these are part of an FRFR solution or are they more amp+cab?

I use an FRFR system (Axe FX II in to two Atomic CLR active speakers). I want to try non-FRFR, or the traditional amp+cab setup. First, I want to understand what components make up the FRFR setup? Is it the speaker only, or is it the speaker plus power amp? The active CLR makes it easy because it's a single contained unit - amp+cab. What if the amp and speaker are separate? What does an non-FRFR setup look like? I understand the cabinet part... any 1-2-4x12 guitar cabinet is part of the non-FRFR rig, but what about the power amp? I don't have a lot of knowledge/experience in this area (I have used combos most of my playing years).

Is the Matrix GT800FX considered to be an FRFR device? Or, can it be used in a non-FRFR setup? Or does it depend on the cab/speaker of choice? I recently bought a 1x12 cabinet with a Celestion V30 and want to try that with the Axe. If I use a Matrix 800 in to the V30, am I going to get the "amp+cab" experience? Since the speaker is not FRFR, that setup is not FRFR, right? If the Matrix drives a passive CLR or equivalent, that is FRFR, right?

The impetus for all of the questions comes from a jam session this past weekend. I have seen the many discussions/debates on the forum on FRFR vs. Amp+Cab. I now have a much more poignant understanding of the discussion. This past weekend, I jammed with a friend for several hours and we both ran tube amps and pedals. Then, I got out the Axe with Atomic speakers and was underwhelmed -- it sounded very thin and anemic. I understand that it's not an apples to apples comparison and understand why FRFR doesn't sound the same and that a true comparison would have the amps in a separate room and mic'd up. However, I do want to have the option of getting that amp in the room feel and sound with the Axe. I hope the Matrix is part of that solution. If not, what power amp(s) should I be looking at?
 
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jamn4jc said:
Is the Matrix GT800FX considered to be an FRFR device? Or, can it be used in a non-FRFR setup? Or does it depend on the cab/speaker of choice? I recently bought a 1x12 cabinet with a Celestion V30 and want to try that with the Axe. If I use a Matrix 800 in to the V30, am I going to get the "amp+cab" experience? Since the speaker is not FRFR, that setup is not FRFR, right? If the Matrix drives a passive CLR or equivalent, that is FRFR, right?
Click to expand...

Matrix power amps (I use the GT1000FX) is a neutral amp that can be used to power both passive FRFR cabs (i.e. Matrix Q12, Xitone etc) or real guitar cabs (such as your 1x12).

With the FRFR passive cab you use with the cab sims on in the AF2, with real guitar cabs you turn cab sims off in your AF2.

So the Matrix amp gives you the flexibility to use either, both or any combination with FOH.
 
Whatever sounds good is good :) but the recommendation is:

- Neutral power amp (E.g. Matrix) + guitar cab: power amp modeling ON, cab sims OFF or ON to taste

- Tube power amp (E.g. Mesa) + guitar cab: power amp modeling OFF, cab sims OFF or ON to taste
 
I have an Matrix GT800FX with closed back 1X12 EV 12L classics and I use it with amp sims ON. To me, it sounds much better this way.
I think the combination of the Matrix and EV12Ls help lots in being able to use amp sims. This might not be a great setup if I had loaded the cabs
with V30s instead (which I love in some applications). The only thing I might change in my setup would be to go to a 1 closed-back and 1 open-back
EV12L setup.
 
This is great... I woke up this morning in a bit of a panic about the Matrix that I am picking up this weekend. Is it buyer's remorse if you haven't actually paid for it, yet? Thanks to you guys, I am really looking forward to picking up my new toy.
 
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barhrecords said:
Whatever sounds good is good :) but the recommendation is:

- Neutral power amp (E.g. Matrix) + guitar cab: power amp modeling ON, cab sims OFF or ON to taste

- Tube power amp (E.g. Mesa) + guitar cab: power amp modeling OFF, cab sims OFF or ON to taste
Click to expand...

I use an Atomic 50/50 with power amp modeling ON. Sounds better to me than the Matrix amp.
 
jamn4jc said:
I want to tie up some loose ends around my understanding of FRFR and what other options are our there. I also want to understand how the Matrix Amps (e.g. GT800FX) are being used and whether or not these are part of an FRFR solution or are they more amp+cab?

I use an FRFR system (Axe FX II in to two Atomic CLR active speakers). I want to try non-FRFR, or the traditional amp+cab setup. First, I want to understand what components make up the FRFR setup? Is it the speaker only, or is it the speaker plus power amp? The active CLR makes it easy because it's a single contained unit - amp+cab. What if the amp and speaker are separate? What does an non-FRFR setup look like? I understand the cabinet part... any 1-2-4x12 guitar cabinet is part of the non-FRFR rig, but what about the power amp? I don't have a lot of knowledge/experience in this area (I have used combos most of my playing years).

Is the Matrix GT800FX considered to be an FRFR device? Or, can it be used in a non-FRFR setup? Or does it depend on the cab/speaker of choice? I recently bought a 1x12 cabinet with a Celestion V30 and want to try that with the Axe. If I use a Matrix 800 in to the V30, am I going to get the "amp+cab" experience? Since the speaker is not FRFR, that setup is not FRFR, right? If the Matrix drives a passive CLR or equivalent, that is FRFR, right?

The impetus for all of the questions comes from a jam session this past weekend. I have seen the many discussions/debates on the forum on FRFR vs. Amp+Cab. I now have a much more poignant understanding of the discussion. This past weekend, I jammed with a friend for several hours and we both ran tube amps and pedals. Then, I got out the Axe with Atomic speakers and was underwhelmed -- it sounded very thin and anemic. I understand that it's not an apples to apples comparison and understand why FRFR doesn't sound the same and that a true comparison would have the amps in a separate room and mic'd up. However, I do want to have the option of getting that amp in the room feel and sound with the Axe. I hope the Matrix is part of that solution. If not, what power amp(s) should I be looking at?
Click to expand...


For an amp to be Full Range and have a Flat Response the design has to be good and also provide specs to back up the claim. Yes it's easy yo fudge on specs so reputation is always good followed with third party testing and real world reviews . Most devices that have a spec of +/- 2dB are pretty good over the range of 20hz to 20k for pro audio.

This is also the same for an FRFR speaker, you want the response to be as flat as possible across a wide range of frequencies thus not adding or subtracting any character to the sound. Coherency is another issue but is also apart of a system that is going to have a wide range of coverage with out added distortions within the sound field.

Another option you can look at would be the EV12L speaker, fairly neutral as far as a guitar speaker goes and you can run the cab sims inorder to get the flavor of a particular cab though the Matrix and xitone are probably lighter options with respect to a Limited Range speaker option.

Your thin and anemic issue would have made a great tuning experiment/session with your tube amp running along the Axe EQ'ing as you played.
 
I've been going through the same FRFR vs Cab questions you are. Six months and $10,000 later, here are my results: :)

I have tested the following configurations with my Axe II:

(1) GT1000FX run into my 2-1x12 cabs. (EVM12L & Celestion G12T-75)
(2) One RCF NX12SMA
(3) Two Atomic CLRs
(4) Friedman BE100 W/D/W using the Axe for just effects into Matrix as the wet amp.

My favorite configuration is hands-down #4. Running the Friedman dry into my 2-1x12's and then wet (stereo) via Axe II & Matrix into a Marshall 1960b is jaw dropping. Just killer "in the room" sound. (clean, crunch, lead..just amazing) The Friedman's have a reputation for a reason, killer amp.

My next favorite is the two CLRs. It took me a while to dial in the sound, but the clean tones are simply stellar, and I've dialed in a couple of lead tones that give me hope that I'll eventually get there. (I've only had them for a couple of weeks) I was a bit skeptical, but I broke down and recorded my Friedman using a couple of great mics, and then compared THAT to the Friedman models in the Axe, and they are spot on. Now, if I could just get "amp in the room" Friedman tone with CLRs, it would be a no-brainer...I'd sell off all my other equipment and take a vacation to Bali. :)

Regarding #1, I wasn't ever able to get the Axe II Friedman sims to work using the Matrix into my guitar cabs. I'm not sure if it was the interaction between the Axe power amp sim, and the Matrix or what, but it always sounded wonky, and never really got me close to the real Friedman "in the room" tone. And again, I had the real Friedman there to A/B against.

The RCF never hit the spot for me either. I really like the CLRs better. Just personal preference I think.

By the way, my preferred tones are either clean or classic rock kind of stuff. No metal, djent (is that a word?), rap, hip-hop, disco, etc. So I tend to run on the cleaner side with not a lot of hair on my crunch/lead settings.
 
Great thread jamn4jc and all - I hope we can get much on this subject. :encouragement:

Its so hard to know what going to be right for your ear without being able to demo CLRs and Matrix solutions BEFORE you buy.

This Forum - and threads like this - are invaluable to Axe newbies trying to hone in on a power/speaker solution for their Axe.

All - it would be VERY helpful to know what kind of music you play so we all have some context (metal, rock, country, jazz or a "fusion" of styles and tones).
 
smcrosby said:
Great thread jamn4jc and all - I hope we can get much on this too. This Forum - and threads like this - are invaluable to Axe newbies trying to hone in on a power/speaker solution for the Axe.

Its so hard to know what going to be right for your ear without being able to demo CLRs and Matrix solutions BEFORE you buy.

It is also VERY helpful to know what kind of music commenters to this thread play so we all have some context (metal, rock, country, jazz or a "fusion" of styles and tones).
Click to expand...


Most companies have a two week no questions asked return policy.

I took full advantage of that before settling on the Matrix GT1000fx as my amp and my Matrix Q12 as my FRFR monitor. I am currently playing through the new NL12 matrix cabs. Just a great setup for meat and potatoes pub players like me that prefer real cabs in the BL over monitors.
 
Most any power amp will work, crown, qsc, those guys have been making amps for years, doesn't have to be matrix, people jocked matrix for the 1u size. What I have found is using the same cab in a non FRFR setup ie: 4x12 boogie cab and a power amp, and using high gain amps, there is very little difference in the sound of the amps going this route. They will all sound very similar, because of how much of it is the Cab.

It will show you exactly why the IR's are so important as a tone shaping tool.
 
mrstrat said:
I've been going through the same FRFR vs Cab questions you are. Six months and $10,000 later, here are my results: :)
Click to expand...

Wow... thanks for the feedback. I am headed down that road -- 6 months + $thousands. My wife is great about my passion/hobby, but it's getting to be too much. You add up the Axe, MFC, CLRs, covers, cases, power strips, wireless, cables, etc... It is a chunk of change. Then, I decided that I still want/need a tube amp as a backup, then a couple of pedals, then a power amp...

Your findings are interesting. I tried the Axe as an FX only, but couldn't get it to sound right. Plus, I really felt like I was missing all the beauty of the Axe amps -- since 11.x these are crown jewels that I don't want to ignore. Hopefully, my experience with configuration #1 is a bit more positive.
 
LVC said:
Most companies have a two week no questions asked return policy.

I took full advantage of that before settling on the Matrix GT1000fx as my amp and my Matrix Q12 as my FRFR monitor. I am currently playing through the new NL12 matrix cabs. Just a great setup for meat and potatoes pub players like me that prefer real cabs in the BL over monitors.
Click to expand...

LVC - maybe I'll truck up to your part of NJ one day to check out your Matrix set up before one of your gigs if that is OK with you.

All - anyone else gigging in the NJ-NYC area with Matrix or CLR solutions that I can check out?

My current AXE FX II solution - a pair of powered KRK Rockit 8's - sounds really great for playing in peoples living rooms. :lol

But, I'm dialing in tones on 8" speakers (albeit with bass ports) which can't be good in the long run ... right? :roll

So I would really like to gear up, bust out and start gigging in small to mid-size venues again or I am going to go a little nuts :stupid:

Sigh ... the agony of choice :roll
 
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jamn4jc said:
... My wife is great about my passion/hobby, but it's getting to be too much. You add up the Axe, MFC, CLRs, covers, cases, power strips, wireless, cables, etc... It is a chunk of change. Then, I decided that I still want/need a tube amp as a backup, then a couple of pedals, then a power amp...
Click to expand...

:lol Right there with you brother.

My wife is great too, but ready to retire after 33 years of teaching 6 & 7 graders (the testosterone years).

I am not ready to part with my Mesa Coliseum Series 300 head or JC-120 amp or any peddles either. So when you add up my purchases over the past 2-3 years - a Yamaha Motif XF8, Axe FX II and two U.S. Masters guitars (one retrofitted with Suhr and one with EMG pickups and Floyd Upgrade brass blocks on both) - its easy to get nervous about going overboard $$$ testing and returning expensive FRFR amp/speaker solutions.
 
Stringtheorist said:
I use an Atomic 50/50 with power amp modeling ON. Sounds better to me than the Matrix amp.
Click to expand...

Comments like these make me comfortable about my Carvin purchase, having never compared to a Matrix. I had an Atomic 50/50, and actually prefered the Carvin when A/B'd.
 
jamn4jc said:
Wow... thanks for the feedback. I am headed down that road -- 6 months + $thousands. My wife is great about my passion/hobby, but it's getting to be too much. You add up the Axe, MFC, CLRs, covers, cases, power strips, wireless, cables, etc... It is a chunk of change. Then, I decided that I still want/need a tube amp as a backup, then a couple of pedals, then a power amp...

Your findings are interesting. I tried the Axe as an FX only, but couldn't get it to sound right. Plus, I really felt like I was missing all the beauty of the Axe amps -- since 11.x these are crown jewels that I don't want to ignore. Hopefully, my experience with configuration #1 is a bit more positive.
Click to expand...

To be clear, even though my first choice is the Friedman W/D/W configuration, I'm going all out to get the Axe/CLR config to where I want it to be. Hauling around a tube amp, plus the Axe/matrix, plus another cab and 3 microphones is just ridiculousness, so unless I go out on tour with Billy Idol, :) I'm not taking that rig out to gig with. So for me even though the real amp sounds the best to my ears, I'm dedicated to getting the Axe/CLR solution to work for me. The only thing I'll be selling in the near future is the RCF.
 
I am playing the 19th @ Junction 46 in Ledgewood

Plan on using the Nl12 with the Matrix amp


smcrosby said:
LVC - maybe I'll truck up to your part of NJ one day to check out your Matrix set up before one of your gigs if that is OK with you.

All - anyone else gigging in the NJ-NYC area with Matrix or CLR solutions that I can check out?

My current AXE FX II solution - a pair of powered KRK Rockit 8's - sounds really great for playing in peoples living rooms. :lol

But, I'm dialing in tones on 8" speakers (albeit with bass ports) which can't be good in the long run ... right? :roll

So I would really like to gear up, bust out and start gigging in small to mid-size venues again or I am going to go a little nuts :stupid:

Sigh ... the agony of choice :roll
Click to expand...
 
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