I need a powered monitor without dsp (no latency)

[la szum]

Inevitably there is natural latency between the speakers and our ears, but the thing is that this will increase even more adding gear with dsp. I feel fine with Fm3 latency, but adding 5ms more of latency on top of that I definitely can feel it, specially with clean tones.

Yup. Disregard the snipes posted here and embrace your own experience. If it matters to you it matters to you.
Let other people make their own choices and talk down to themselves.

 

[iaresee]

So guys, which active speakers (10 or 12 speaker) without dsp (no latency)?

I don't think these exist and if they do your selection is going to be limited. It's the anti-thesis of what people demand from powered speakers to ship them with a power amp setup that doesn't have DSP correction to make them "FRFR".

Plus, power amps that don't need a lot of correcting tend to be bulky and not fit inside speaker boxes. The DSPs are a necessity for these small sized Class D amps to keep them in the range of what we want to call FRFR.

You're better off looking at unpowered speakers and a power amp setup. There's a ton of choice if you do it that way so you'll be more likely to find something that suits your budget. A Bryston 4B and some unpowered JBLs? That sounds pretty nice to me. (But also $10k )

 

[mr_fender]

You can always go the passive speaker route and get an all analog power amp to drive it. The Matrix amps are popular around here, as are the Duncan pedal amps for lower power needs.

 

[la szum]

Here come the latency shamers right on cue. I totally agree with you Overture1922. The 2 ms or so of latency in the axe fx itself is unavoidable, and short enough to be unnoticeable to me. But I can start to feel the disconnect at 4 ms and it just gets worse from there. 8 ms is an eternity in this regard and would be a complete deal breaker for me. That's why my FRFR solution is totally analog. I was initially looking at popular powered speakers like the QSC K12s and Yamaha DXRs and others. But once I realized they pretty much all had DSP front ends, I went a different direction. I was determined not to add 1 more ms of latency if I didn't have to. I also wasn't crazy about the additional AD/DA conversion. I opted for a pair of Celestion F12-X200 cabs powered by a Seymour Duncan PowerStage 700. Pure sonic bliss.

Yup. Cumulative latency is an issue. I don't care if it doesn't matter to other people. It matters to me.
One element alone might not be problematic. It's the cumulative latency that builds up when you
have multiple elements/devices introducing their own digital latency to the entire chain. Then it can
become problematic and impact how we play.

 

[sprint]

I'd like to see a straight answer without going over and over the latency explanations

Passive FR cab w clean flat power amp.

 

[marsonic]

I don't think these exist and if they do your selection is going to be limited. It's the anti-thesis of what people demand from powered speakers to ship them with a power amp setup that doesn't have DSP correction to make them "FRFR".

Plus, power amps that don't need a lot of correcting tend to be bulky and not fit inside speaker boxes. The DSPs are a necessity for these small sized Class D amps to keep them in the range of what we want to call FRFR.

That's not exactly correct.

The amps themselves are pretty much all totally fine. It's the cheap speakers that "demand" the correction. IOW, building a FRFR amplifier is damn-near trivial...they basically all are pretty much exactly that. Building a speaker, crossovers, and enclosure that actually responds flat...that's damn near impossible even at the high end. And the vast majority of companies seem to have come to the conclusion that since even impeccably made, crazy expensive speakers still benefit from DSP, they might as well make cheaper speakers and rely even more on DSP.

Whether you're talking about the hi-fi world, the studio monitor world, or the PA world...basically any speaker (system) with DSP correction is going to be more accurate than any speaker system without DSP correction. It isn't always valid to say that a $500 DSP speaker is going to be better than a $10,000 non-DSP speaker....but a $2,000 DSP speaker will probably be better than both of them. And that holds even if you take them apart and run them all off the same amp (while preserving the DSP).

You're better off looking at unpowered speakers and a power amp setup. There's a ton of choice if you do it that way so you'll be more likely to find something that suits your budget. A Bryston 4B and some unpowered JBLs? That sounds pretty nice to me. (But also $10k )

You definitely don't need to go that high end on the amp. It's not exactly true that all amps are identical, but the differences are tiny.

But, yes, to the OP....the "solution" to your problem is passive speakers and a non-DSP power amp. If that was what I wanted, I'd at least want to try the Celestion co-axials in a box that looked like a guitar cab along with basically any convenient SS amplifier. They won't be as accurate as the high end of modern DSP speakers....but you can correct for at least some of their flaws with the EQ options in the Fractal and they'll look the part...plus, I have yet to actually hear anything bad about them.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

Not to mention there may be some active dsp driven monitors that come in well under 5ms.

 

[JTI]

I'm not saying others can't feel latency or latency doesn't exist. I play a GR55/HX Stomp/FM9 combo platter rig from 10+ ft away from the amp I am running them through. Believe me. I know latency.

I guess I am just super skeptical when people become precious about it (not saying OP was this way, per se); but just the minute every little thing starts causing someone to express a concern over it is where I go "maybe just a buy an amp with a headphone jack, sit directly in front of it and call it a day".

 

[Patzag]

If I may recommend, try a couple in a local music store.
I think your speakers have an inordinate amount of latency. Most pro systems will add about 2ms or less, which should keep the overall latency under detection threshold.
Otherwise, look for some “old” speakers, pre digital revolution. Pretty much everything today uses DSP. It’s too cheap and convenient to be avoided by most manufacturers. If you use a 2-way speaker, you’ll need a crossover. A small mass produced DSP unit will do that on the cheap.
Won’t necessarily sound better, but that’s what’s used a lot these days.
Your other option is to buy a speaker from Nirvana Audio. Full range speaker with no crossover. Hook that to an analog power amp. No crossover, no phase issues, no DSP.
Not super powerful either. But if it’s for home, it should sound good.

 

[sprint]

I'm not saying others can't feel latency or latency doesn't exist. I play a GR55/HX Stomp/FM9 combo platter rig from 10+ ft away from the amp I am running them through. Believe me. I know latency.

I guess I am just super skeptical when people become precious about it (not saying OP was this way, per se); but just the minute every little thing starts causing someone to express a concern over it is where I go "maybe just a buy an amp with a headphone jack, sit directly in front of it and call it a day".

or just keep track of your current rig latency vs tolerable latency difference and spend that difference wisely with good bang for the latency buck - no need to recommend going all out analogue just cuz a player wants to be miserly on latency.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

I'm not saying others can't feel latency or latency doesn't exist. I play a GR55/HX Stomp/FM9 combo platter rig from 10+ ft away from the amp I am running them through. Believe me. I know latency.

I guess I am just super skeptical when people become precious about it (not saying OP was this way, per se); but just the minute every little thing starts causing someone to express a concern over it is where I go "maybe just a buy an amp with a headphone jack, sit directly in front of it and call it a day".

Also when looking at the cost and complexity of the solution in relevance to the perceived problem. For another thousand dollars, I think I can live with standing a little closer to my speaker and saving that money.

 

[overture1922]

A powered speaker without DSP? I don't think your going to find a new box without it. probably have to build one or find an older model of powered speaker that didn't have it. That said I really like the EV PMX 12MP's I'm using if they have any latency I can't tell or notice it.

Your Ev monitor may have latency too.

Wow! That is super interesting. I have not seen something like this before. Sure is making me think. Thanks
for sharing.

It is my pleasure! Try this method if you can.

 

[iaresee]

Building a speaker, crossovers, and enclosure that actually responds flat...that's damn near impossible even at the high end.

Agreed.

The amps themselves are pretty much all totally fine.

I disagree here. I think stuff like the Dayton amps everyone is using sound pretty noisy without their DSP correction in play.

But, as you said, the sum of the parts is really what demands corrective DSP: to make it all FRFR, especially at high volumes, the DSP is required. And we're better off for having there generally. No disagreement from me on that part.

But like, it's not a huge disagreement. And OP is sort of fixated on amps with DSP are bad, so it's just easier to give them the answer that fits their narrative and gets them to a happy spot with their rig that argue nuance and systems.

You definitely don't need to go that high end on the amp. It's not exactly true that all amps are identical, but the differences are tiny.

If you're spending even a dime less than this your soundstage just won't be forward enough and you'll miss the real nuisances of your playing.



Was the joke not apparent in my original post @marsonic? Of course you don't need to spend to $10k. You're harshing my buzz, man.

 

[overture1922]

I was curious about the Laney LFR112. I sent an email to Laney and their customer service have confirmed that it is all analog, even it's cab sim.

 

[la szum]

It is my pleasure! Try this method if you can.

I have, and I do.

I run either a non-DSP FRFR with 3 band EQ on it, but mostly run into the FX Return of a
100 Watt Tube Amp, and then into a semi-open back 2 x 12. Hard to comprehend how
I could be happier with the tones I am getting, and the feel.

 

[Admin M@]

What about the Tech 21 power engine? @Larry Mitchell likes this speaker, if I recall correctly.

 

[overture1922]

What about the Tech 21 power engine? @Larry Mitchell likes this speaker, if I recall correctly.

Yes, of course, thanks for remembering it! I had this 10years ago, but I don't know if today we have better options. Some people says that it doesn't have enought power.

 

[TheOtherDave]

What about the Tech 21 power engine? @Larry Mitchell likes this speaker, if I recall correctly.

I know a guy who used that for his… Pod? I don’t remember… I’m pretty sure it was a floor unit, and this would’ve been around the original AxeFX Standard/Ultra timeframe… well, whatever, the point is that it worked great.

 

[marsonic]

If you're spending even a dime less than this your soundstage just won't be forward enough and you'll miss the real nuisances of your playing.



Was the joke not apparent in my original post @marsonic? Of course you don't need to spend to $10k. You're harshing my buzz, man.

Sadly, I missed the joke.

I think I've talked to one too many "audiophiles".

 

[Keybi]

Hello guys

Recently and bought Presonus air10 (active speaker) to use with my Fm3. Although it sounded good, I was feeling a strange sensation compared playing thru headphones. My playing felt kind ´´disconnected´´, so I decided to measure the latency of the Presonus using the following method.

View attachment 108479

I compared the recordings and I found that the Presonus Air10 has around 5ms of latency compared to the direct signal.

View attachment 108480


To prove that it was not something ´´inside of my head´´ I also did the same test with an analog speaker instead (with the same conditions) and there is no latency at all beetwen the two tracks.


View attachment 108481


I know that the FM3 has around 3ms latency, and using it with the Presonus results in 8ms of latency (not to mention the inevitable latency that obviously exists between the speaker and our ears). Definitely it is noticeable (at least for me).


So guys, which active speakers (10 or 12 speaker) without dsp (no latency)?

Thank you in advance

That's easy.

Redsound ELIS 8 or MF10. All analog, fantastic sound ;-)