How to translate tone to FOH?

G

gibvictory

Inspired
AXE just arrived yesterday. Got a ways to go before I'm ready to gig it. I've been using the record out on my Triaxis to FOH live and have been happy with it. Didn't have to work at it. The tone I made through the cabs translated well out front. That's the first thing being eliminated from my rack. I'm, for the time being, using the Axe with my Mesa 20/20 and two 1-12 v30 cabs. If I continue to use the Mesa cabs or get one of the other speaker solutions I still have to get the FOH right. I have a pair of M-Audio BX 8"s but I'm not confident getting a tone with those will translate well. Selling all my gear will get me a MFC, a Matrix amp and either a pair of Matrix cabs or CLR's. At that point I'll be tapped out.

Will either the NL12's or the CLR's be all I need? In other words will what I hear out of those translate well to FOH? I have read numerous posts in the past about this but that was before the more recent cab solutions. I have no problem creating my tones at volume and I do play in a loud band. Is that even relevant?
 
I should add that I read Scott Petersons review of the CLR and compares them favorably to his nearfields which he used to set up his tones. I certainly take his word for it. I guess the real question for me is if any of the Matrix cabs do the same. I'm aware they are more guitar cab like. Has anyone dialed in sounds on them that translated well to FOH. I'm kind of liking that they feel guitar cab like and the weight appeals to me. I know there has been some back and forth between some user's on this forum between the two. Don't want to go there. I just want to know if the sounds you dial in on the Matrix cabs translate well.
 
I use a CFR and a NL12 in stereo, it may seem like an odd combination but I get the best of both worlds and always tweek my tones through both. I have a constant monitor of what FOH is getting with the CFR and have an "cab in the room' sound from the Nl12.
It has taken a little trial and error, it's a different approach than a traditional amp set up. What has helped me a lot is to record rehearsals off the desk to get an idea on how my tone is sounding in the mix.
 
what you hear through the CLR's is EXACTLY what you are sending to FOH....how transparent the FOH system is or how much tweaking the FOH person does is entirely out of your hands. The put out exactly what you put in, nothing more or less.
 
As noted, CLR will telling you what's going to FOH. You'll be lucky if FOH sounds as good, but they'll have what they need.
 
gibvictory said:
Will either the NL12's or the CLR's be all I need? In other words will what I hear out of those translate well to FOH? I have read numerous posts in the past about this but that was before the more recent cab solutions. I have no problem creating my tones at volume and I do play in a loud band. Is that even relevant?
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I would personally not rely on the ether of those for a true FOH representation. Each FOH system and room will be different naturally. So it would make sense to have the sound person to make your tone fit or translate in the FOH system. A wireless is priceless in this situation, a quick sound check with you out in front and you will know right away if something is very wrong based on what you have tuned up for your stage monitoring system whatever that might be.

I always had the luxury of running the sound system I played through so I had the opportunity to tune it the way I liked it. I understand that not everyone has this opportunity so you may have to just trust what you have tuned in to sound good.
 
jlynnb1 said:
what you hear through the CLR's is EXACTLY what you are sending to FOH....how transparent the FOH system is or how much tweaking the FOH person does is entirely out of your hands. The put out exactly what you put in, nothing more or less.
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I never brought into this claim.

whatever patch you hear out of a CLR for the most part is highly tweaked. It is not plug and play. Just check all the advice people get on threads when they cant get their CLR to sound right after they purchase one. There is a learning curve.

So unless I am missing something -- I do not see how it will be the same tone the audience will hear. when the highly tweaked patch (specific to the CLR) is sent to FOH...

To me this is no different than downloading a patch that sounded good when the person that created it made a demo using his setup but sounds like shit when you try and play it through your monitors.

I think this applies to any monitor not just the CLR.

Next year I have a couple of wedding dates that I will have to use FOH and I plan on spending some time tweaking my presets through an actual PA system and not a monitor.

I might not even go through FOH on these gigs and just go old school and mike my NL12 cabs

Again maybe I am missing something but it just does not make sense to me.
 
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Well, we have talked about that many times.

CLRs help you to hear what your presets how they really sound like, so they will be "ideal" presets.
They might go trough a FOH that colors, but it's easier to fixed that, then starting with a preset that was created on a sytem that colored the tone already.
You will never know if the problem was in your preset or FOH.

When it sounds bad via CLR, then your preset sounds bad.
There are other personal systems that hide bommyness for exaple, but your sound will still boomy in FOH.
 
levipeto said:
Well, we have talked about that many times.

CLRs help you to hear what your presets how they really sound like. so they will ideal presets.
They might go trough a FOH that color, but it's easier to fixed that starting with an ideal preset, then with a preset that was created on a sytem that colored the tone already.
You will never know if the problem was in your preset or FOH.

When it sounds bad via CLR, then your preset sounds bad.
There are other personal systems that hide bommyness for exaple, but your sound will still boomy in FOH.
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How?

You've curt the bass frequencies (so it does not sound boomy ;)) ... added this ... cut that etc etc etc. That preset has been tweaked specific to the CLR. The CLR is not plug and play and you know that. It requires some skill sets to dial your preset in for the CLR.


It does not make any sense that all of the sudden you can take a preset created for a specific monitor (regardless of brand) and expect it to sound the same when you play it through a completely different system.

It makes no sense.

to me it makes more sense to dial in your preset through a PA system (especially if it is one the band uses all the time) and run with that.
 
LVC said:
So unless I am missing something -- I do not see how it will be the same tone the audience will hear. when the highly tweaked patch (specific to the CLR) is sent to FOH...
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The tuned preset from the Axe would be no different then if you had a real amp with a mic stuffed in front of it. The real amp is what it is and the mic is going to send that information the board and the sound person will still have to make it fit into the context of the other instruments because of the conditions of the house and/or the system. The end result is still going to be the same wether it's coming from the mic in front of the amp or fron the cab sim in the Axe... not trying to agitate you here Laz :lol but does that make any sense?.

The only real difference is the amount of time it took to get the tone you wanted to hear from ether device.
 
i finally experienced a CLR and it is brutally honest. that doesn't mean it sounds the best, or is better than that speaker or whatever.

it means it's the best at sounding like exactly what you're putting into it - no bass bumps, no treble peaks etc coming from the speaker itself.

let's say you make a preset using the CLR as the reference. and it sounds "good" to you.

now when you send that preset through a huge PA system and it suddenly sounds boomy, you know the PA is hyping the low-end and you can adjust it either at the PA or at the Axe-FX (global EQ for a specific output, etc). or if it's lacking bass in the PA, maybe the mixer has the low end EQ bumped up for other channels that do sound bassy enough.

again, this method relies on creating your presets on the flattest speaker possible - not because flat sounds good, but because flat sounds flat - you can tweak it to taste from there, but you have a "reference" style starting point.


i used to do the opposite and create presets on my QSC k10s that had hyped bass and treble (yes the bass boost was off and HF was normal). when i cut the bass and treble in the axe preset to sound good on those speakers, they generally sounded very good on PA systems, which are usually set to boost the bass and treble for clarity and boom-in-the-room.

now i'm using an RCF speaker and have been dialing it in to sound good on that - it's a pretty flat speaker - and then adjusting a bit on the PA mixer to sit well in the mix.
 
LVC said:
How?

You've curt the bass frequencies (so it does not sound boomy ;)) ... added this ... cut that etc etc etc. That preset has been tweaked specific to the CLR. The CLR is not plug and play and you know that. It requires some skill sets to dial your preset in for the CLR.
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Certain IRs are boomy. I pick a good IR and don't tweak. With other systems (I heard), you can't tell.

You don't even deal with IRs, so why comment?
 
LVC said:
How?

You've curt the bass frequencies (so it does not sound boomy ;)) ... added this ... cut that etc etc etc. That preset has been tweaked specific to the CLR. The CLR is not plug and play and you know that. It requires some skill sets to dial your preset in for the CLR.


It does not make any sense that all of the sudden you can take a preset created for a specific monitor (regardless of brand) and expect it to sound the same when you play it through a completely different system.

It makes no sense.

to me it makes more sense to dial in your preset through a PA system (especially if it is one the band uses all the time) and run with that.
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Are you saying that the CLR's aren't a true representation of the AXE FX?
 
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Let me add another thing or two. I do know that in the end some FOH tweaking will have to happen. We have our own sound system and sound man. He's been mixing us for seven years. Although we rarely get the luxury of a sound check that puts me in a good position. However, the guitar I use all night has piezos and midi, so I'm tethered. I know once my sound leaves me I no longer own it. It won't be perfect but I expect close. My second guitar onstage is wireless but presets for that will most likely be different.
I see the recommendations for the CLR's. Does anyone using the Matrix or Xitone cabs for that matter have trouble getting FOH to sound close to your cab?
 
If your going to use IR's, wouldn't you want to use the CLR's or the Q12A's? Aren't the NL12's more like a traditional guitar cab?
 
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gibvictory said:
Let me add another thing or two. I do know that in the end some FOH tweaking will have to happen. We have our own sound system and sound man. He's been mixing us for seven years. Although we rarely get the luxury of a sound check that puts me in a good position. However, the guitar I use all night has piezos and midi, so I'm tethered. I know once my sound leaves me I no longer own it. It won't be perfect but I expect close. My second guitar onstage is wireless but presets for that will most likely be different.
I see the recommendations for the CLR's. Does anyone using the Matrix or Xitone cabs for that matter have trouble getting FOH to sound close to your cab?
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I use the Matrix Q12A's, and I have no issues with FOH.
 
LVC I respect you and your contributions here and always enjoy dialogue with you...but as someone who doesn't use frfr and has an obvious bias against clr's I don't think you can be very objective. Numerous people have attested to the transparency and flatness of the clr's. Logic dictates they are about the truest representation, if not the definitive representation of the Axe at this point and time.
 
Chuck Link, I've not decided if I'm going to use IR's. I just want to get the AXE up and running with the amp and guitar cab I have now so I can sell off the next piece to start building the rest of my new Fractal rig. I'm sure to have some issues going FOH with my current rig although I could stick a mic in front of my cab right now. But using the output on the Axe to go FOH is where I'm eventually going with or without IR's. If going FRFR will help translate my tone easier than the NL12's then that's where I'm heading and I'll be using IR's. I like the idea of the NL12's. Guitar cab like, lightweight and more affordable. If it'a gonna be a bitch getting a good tone FOH based on what I dial in on them then they're not affordable if I also have to buy studio monitors not currently in my budget.
 
gibvictory said:
Chuck Link, I've not decided if I'm going to use IR's. I just want to get the AXE up and running with the amp and guitar cab I have now so I can sell off the next piece to start building the rest of my new Fractal rig. I'm sure to have some issues going FOH with my current rig although I could stick a mic in front of my cab right now. But using the output on the Axe to go FOH is where I'm eventually going with or without IR's. If going FRFR will help translate my tone easier than the NL12's then that's where I'm heading and I'll be using IR's. I like the idea of the NL12's. Guitar cab like, lightweight and more affordable. If it'a gonna be a bitch getting a good tone FOH based on what I dial in on them then they're not affordable if I also have to buy studio monitors not currently in my budget.
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I owned the matrix Gt1000 and a port city cab, which is very similar to the NL12 setup. Not using the cab sims and mics was limiting and made it difficult for me to dial in the tone I wanted.

I went with the FRFR route and I'm very happy with this decision.

IMO, CLR's are going to be the most accurate monitors under $3000. The Q12A's have ports and move air differently then the CLR's. Both are Full range and flat. The CLR is slightly flatter then the Q12A, and the functionality of the CLR makes it more versatile. That being said, I use Q12A's and love it. Using 2 -Q12A's, I don't have to go through FOH in most small venues, and they sound amazing.
 
jlynnb1 said:
LVC I respect you and your contributions here and always enjoy dialogue with you...but as someone who doesn't use frfr and has an obvious bias against clr's I don't think you can be very objective. Numerous people have attested to the transparency and flatness of the clr's. Logic dictates they are about the truest representation, if not the definitive representation of the Axe at this point and time.
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first off I said all monitors not just the CLR.

and you are right ... I do not use FOH ...

I am assuming you do and the preset you created for your CLR sounds the same when you send it through a PA system.

Like I said I just do not get it.

I am trying to understand how if you highly tweak a preset for a specific monitor it is going to going to sound the same going through a PA system.

"Logic dictates" that it won't.
 
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