How to translate tone to FOH?

[Sixstring]

I am really trying to understand this because I might have to go the FOH route on some gigs next year and honestly the more I think about it the less sense it makes to me.


I know if I mike my cab and send it to the PA, tone wise it is going to sound the pretty much the same (yes I know miked tone). In this case what I put in is coming out of FOH.

Lets take a FRFR monitor I purchased to play at home with my AXE-FX. I spent hours tweaking my presets and they sound awesome through my powered monitor.

I go to a gig and run the patch direct through the PA.

What folks here are saying is that it is going to sound the same because XYZ monitor is ( fill in the buzz words).

What I am trying to understand is how could this be the case?

Logic dictates that it will sound different and you will need to re-tweak your preset for the PA and you will end up with a completely different sound coming out of XYZ monitor than what you originally programmed into it via the patch.

Again, logic dedicates if you are running FOH, you are better off tweaking your presets to a PA system especially if you have access to it (i.e. the band owns it).

Ok, I'm try'n bro...:lol maybe this explanation will beter help you out in your quest to understand the differences.

If the FRFR system you spent time tuning your presets on not overly hyped or flat then that same signal your sending to FOH should translate the same way that a guitar cab should. Meaning the only thing changing the end result is the PA which is still going to happen unless the PA system your using is as flat as the one you built your presets on.

The same priceable applies to a mic'd guitar cab... Example; Let's say you spent a little time tuning your amp for the stage your on, mic placement the whole nine yards. Ok... now, that mic'd cab is going through a PA that is colored (not flat) is it going to effect the end result creating the need to EQ the channel to get it to sound right? of corse it will.

The FRFR monitor your using will make it easer or harder to get the tone you tuned in for said monitor to translate to the FOH system which I think is what your talking about? In this case you would be right as you would not only be having to compensate for the FOH system but the color of the monitor in the system as well.

Which renforces the need to have a monitor that is as flat as it can be in order to minimize this problem. Another analogy would be if a guitar cab represents a flat tone the only thing coloring it would be the PA system you send it through. This is the same as if you built a preset on a monitor that is as flat as it possibly can be the only thing coloring it would be the PA your sending through.

Any better?

 

[levipeto]

Laz you assume, that the sound be much different, rather bad, when it gets to FOH.

I have tried your presets with my CLRs and they are awesome. They are little boomy [especially when you turn them up], but it's easy fix.
They are one of the best presets. So if you have good presets, then it's easy to translate them to FOH.

I can see that though, tweaking the preset with a good real amp/cab and then picking an IR for FOH, would give you a better result, then starting on a bad FRFR system.

 

[LVC]

this is a new area for me and I am simply trying to learn (not trying to be difficult).

Next year like I mentioned before I might need to go through FOH on a couple of wedding dates and honestly I am not comfortable (at this point) sending an Axe-FX signal to FOH because I have never done it. I've played a ton of gigs where my amp was miked but never used FOH with the AXE.

I have some time but this one is going to be a biggie for me (FOH with the AXE) if and when I actually do it.

This could be a piece of cake but (at this point) it is way out of my comfort zone.

Laz you assume, that the sound be much different, rather bad, when it gets to FOH.

I have tried your presets with my CLRs and they are awesome. They are little boomy [especially when you turn them up], but it's easy fix.
They are one of the best presets. So if you have good presets, then it's easy to translate it to FOH.

I can see that though, tweaking the preset with a good real amp/cab and then picking an IR for FOH, would give you a better result, then starting on a bad FRFR system.

 

[warlockII]

LVC,
For the people who own their own PA and will NEVER play on another system, yes the best thing would be to dial in your rig on that PA at gig volume w/ everyone else playing. I would guess that most people end up playing through multiple PA's as most bars in my area have their own PA. For people in this boat, it's far better to have dialed it in on as "neutral" a setup as possible (this has been explained far better by previous posters). As far as why bring a high end monitor to a gig...it's the same as why bring your favorite guitar cab with favorite speakers to a gig as opposed to what ever speaker cab you can borrow at the moment...you hear it the way you dialed it in.

 

[sam]

If you use a traditional rigand mic up your guitar cab, you are relying on the FOH engineer to make your amp sound good. It could easily sound terrible and nothing like what you are hearing on stage.

If you use a good flat FRFR monitor to create your sounds and monitor on stage then you are hearing the same signal that you are sending to FOH. You know it sounds clear and good because your monitor is "honest" (flat). The FOH engineer may need to tweak it a bit for the mains speakers and the room, but you at least know what you are sending him and you have a way better chance of it sounding basically as you intend it to.

If you have no engineer and you only use a certain PA setup then by all means test your signal through that PA.

Axe-FX tones are very complex and may require extensive tweaking especially when using cab sims. This is the same as traditional live or studio situations where the engineer may have to apply complex eq to the mic'd tone to get it sounding as desired. The fact that you have to tweak a preset that uses cab Sims is not necessarily a reflection of your FRFR monitor. It could be more to do with IR choice and guitar sound.

Hope this helps clarify some of these concepts.

 

[sam]

We use qsc powered speakers with 15" speakers for mains in the "wedding band" that I play in. They are pretty even and flat sounding. I have used different monitors over time but now I'm using the CLR.

I find with those that the guitar tone translates pretty darn well to the mains. Since the CLRs have even bass mids and highs, my tone in the mains doesn't end up with too much or too little of any of those frequencies relative to what I'm hearing out of my monitor.

Sure it sounds a little different, but the tonal balance and character is essentially there. This is good since we don't have a dedicated sound engineer out there making sure my tone is perfect. That's my job and that's one reason the CLR is such a great tool for me in that situation.

I have also played clubs with good PAs and when plugging in direct from the axe-fx my tone sounds clear and balanced in the FOH and doesn't require any or much tweaking. When I have used the house stage monitors for guitar signal they have also sounded good and accurate. Mind you this is with quality PA speakers/monitors. With cheaper more hyped or frequency deficient gear you will need to eq for it to sound as intended.

 

[sam]

From my perspective it involves going to FOH and whether you are better off tweaking your preset to your PA (if you own one) instead of sending a patch that was tweaked to a particular FRFR monitor (regardless of brand) you use at home.

If you will only ever play through one PA system and you have access to tweak on it then yes I agree, but you will need it in a good sized room and you will need to tweak at gig volume. Also the sound will change when people fill up the room, or when it is set up in a different room etc.

If you cannot do this or you will use other PAs for other gigs then you want to tweak on the flattest most honest reference speakers you have. CLR fits that bill for a lot of people.

 

[GuttaLaser]

for any half-serious venue... if the FOH is the prob... than the sound-check is the answer!
I think there is no way that you jump in... with a tone setted for your personal monitoring system... and it work through the FOH and in the mix (unless you have a big... really big... a**!!!).
My 5cents are... FOH?... so... SOUND-CHECK&TWEACK!!!

 

[barhrecords]

I own two CLR's and some good guitar cabs and power amps etc.

No piece of gear will make your presets sound good direct to a PA and no piece of gear will make your presets sound good through a monitor or guitar cab.

It takes your ears and some knowledge to adjust the preset parameters to get good tone. It's that simple. You have to know a little bit about what you are doing to get good guitar tone. Applies to all rigs. Nothing to do with the AxeFx per se.

The CLR's are not going to make your presets sound better. They are just a speaker system.

Now, for me, because of how neutral the CLR's are, I can create presets on these that "translate" well to other systems. Just like a good mix / master of a song will sound pretty good running through a consumer FOH PA. It translates well. Is that because the song was mixed on CLR's or some other kick ass monitors? Nope. It was the skill of the engineers (and yes probably some kick ass gear too )

For me, the quality of the gear usually means its easier for me to get the results I'm going for. It just makes it easier for some people to use certain pieces of kit.

I personally think using IR's in general requires more knowledge and little learning. It did for me. And I've gigged with traditional rigs for years.

Not using IR's and using a guitar cab is just plain easier to get your head around.

Both IRs-> FRFR and no IR's -> guitar cabs sound kick ass to me. Either one can deliver the goods but each takes some skill and knowledge.

 

[Kriig]

I can understand if it is your back line -- but once you send the patch you tweaked for the monitor to FOH -- what the audience hears will be different than what you are hearing from your monitor.


Which to me begs the question why bring a high end FRFR monitor to a gig if you are going FOH?

I use the same PA as my personal monitors, so no prob for me.. But i get your point. Get a fantastic sound out of my monitoring, then some FOH guy mess things up or the PA sounds radically different. Why bother?

Well.. Why bother buy a good sounding amp or cabs?

To me this is the same question. Why do you need to sound good on stage? The FOH guy can just as easily mess up that mic'd sound. In all my years of playing i have never experienced someone from the desk come up and listen to my amp. They are not interested. Their main goal is to get a good final mix. Your guitar will sound good. Maybe a little different, but the audience will never notice because they never spend hours of thinking about guitar sound.

IMO i have got much better results going direct. And the FOH is happy as a fish, because all he usually do is to set the volume.

I think this goes for any reasonably flat monitor/speaker. CLR, Matrix, RCF, HK Audio etc.

 

[guitvai1]

LVC,
For the people who own their own PA and will NEVER play on another system, yes the best thing would be to dial in your rig on that PA at gig volume w/ everyone else playing. I would guess that most people end up playing through multiple PA's as most bars in my area have their own PA. For people in this boat, it's far better to have dialed it in on as "neutral" a setup as possible (this has been explained far better by previous posters). As far as why bring a high end monitor to a gig...it's the same as why bring your favorite guitar cab with favorite speakers to a gig as opposed to what ever speaker cab you can borrow at the moment...you hear it the way you dialed it in.

What he said for sure.

 

[Dutch]

Suppose you'd go to a studio for recording your best ever songs!


Would you want that studio to mix your songs on Samson Resolve monitors in a square apartment room with blank walls... Or the best freakingly expensive ultra accurate built-into-the-wall Meyer (or whatever's currently the best you can get) in an acoustically designed purpose built studiobuilding?




Would you recon that it wouldn't sound the same in any home stereo anyway so the Resolves will do fine? I don't think so.




Why is it so hard to get your tone right on super accurate monitors? Because they show all the imperfections of the signal you put into it. Selecting Irs for really good monitors is even more challenging than on monitors that hide some of those imperfections. Duh. It takes more tweaking to get it right because the signal wasn't exactly the way you wanted it to be before you tweaked it. But you didn't know because your speakers weren't as accurate!






Now. If your tone has too much low end because you've been tweaking through headphones, not-so-accurate speakers with impaired bandwidth might not reveal that too you.




Why then go through all of that if a cheaper solution gives more instant satisfaction? Having the most accurate reproduction of your tone means that when you get that right you have the best possible basis to give to your FOHman to build the mix with. Doesn't have to sound the same, cuz no two PA's (and rooms) sound the same. But they have some sort of median which would ideally be totally flat response. If your tone is good on totally accurate flat response, it is the best you can do to be good on the most pa's you will be confronted with.




Suppose that tone of yours still has the surplus low end (because it was not revealed to you) and you present that signal to the FOH. The PA that evening deviates from the norm by having a couple more subs than usual. Your tone from that system will then result to be doubly bass heavy. Boomy squared.


Is the most accurate speaker plug-and-play? I think most definitely not! It makes you work harder.
Is the most accurate speaker desirable? If you want the most accurate signal to present to your FOH, yes. If that's not so much your desire, than possibly not. If you want a more pleasant speaker and just let FOH deal with whatever it gets... You decide.


Then all that is required is to investigate which speakers have the most accurate and detailed response and best bandwidth to build your signal on. That would be quantifiable by measuring frequency response on and off-axis. Doing that requires having the facility and equipment to measure them reliably. Which most of us don't have. So we're back to square one. What do we "think" is the most accurate.


Go ahead and discuss.

 

[Chuck Link]

LVC,
For the people who own their own PA and will NEVER play on another system, yes the best thing would be to dial in your rig on that PA at gig volume w/ everyone else playing. I would guess that most people end up playing through multiple PA's as most bars in my area have their own PA. For people in this boat, it's far better to have dialed it in on as "neutral" a setup as possible (this has been explained far better by previous posters). As far as why bring a high end monitor to a gig...it's the same as why bring your favorite guitar cab with favorite speakers to a gig as opposed to what ever speaker cab you can borrow at the moment...you hear it the way you dialed it in.

Totally agree!

 

[Dutch]

To elaborate some more:
Does the AxeFx fail because it is not plug-and-play on an accurate monitor?

I don't think so.
The AxeFx is a totally blank canvas. It's harder to paint than a colour-by-numbers painting set. Instant satisfaction is not guaranteed by far, but the end result is totally original. The AxeFx gives us the tools to do whatever we want to our tone. Anything less would preclude choices we now do have the opportunity to make.

Thus it comes down to the choice of IR and processing to get the result we want. And it means needing to think like a producer to get there.

 

[Chuck Link]

There are more variable to contend with than a Shuttle launch ... :lol

Probably one of the main reasons why I like real cabs with my Axe-Fx. It is really hard to screw things up.

Mic'ing up a speaker = more variables

 

[barhrecords]

Mic'ing up a speaker = more variables

Micing a cab can certainly have its issues for sure!

But you are talking about a technique, gigging with guitar cabs and micing them, that is well known to players and the crew. It may not be the absolute perfect cleanest best thing to do, but everyone knows how to do it and its one less thing to worry about putting on a show.

I do think that is changing though. But I would say most shows are still predominantly mic'ed cabs for guitars. About 50/50 with the real cabs off stage.

Once everyone, the players and the crew get used to it, having a dead consistent tone every night running direct out of the AxeFx using an XLR out, does not suck!

 

[aleclee]

IMO, "translate to FOH" is not a big deal assuming you have dialed things in for FRFR. If you're feeding FOH a signal that's reasonably EQ'ed (not boomy, honking, nor shrill), the sound guy should be able to bridge whatever gap may exist.

The two places where things can go awry are

1. Setting up your presets on a system that's not sufficiently accurate
2. Having a sound guy who wants to EQ any guitar signal like it's coming off an SM57

My experience with #1 was eye-opening. I was dialing in my presets on a set of 5" Mackie monitors and when played on a system with greater bass response, it was muddy as hell. Now that I've upgraded my monitors, I'd be surprised if any future mud was anything but the result of a hyped PA.

If you run into #2, all you can do is try to break him of the habit. Ask him to start with a flat EQ and try to coach him into accepting the notion that you're feeding him a tonally balanced signal.

 

[sam]

Micing a cab can certainly have its issues for sure!

But you are talking about a technique, gigging with guitar cabs and micing them, that is well known to players and the crew. It may not be the absolute perfect cleanest best thing to do, but everyone knows how to do it and its one less thing to worry about putting on a show.

I do think that is changing though. But I would say most shows are still predominantly mic'ed cabs for guitars. About 50/50 with the real cabs off stage.

Once everyone, the players and the crew get used to it, having a dead consistent tone every night running direct out of the AxeFx using an XLR out, does not suck!

My experience running direct is that sound guys are often psyched to not have to twiddle with the mic, and when they hear the tone they are instantly satisfied and done with the guitar portion of the sound check. They like it cause it's easier, quicker, sounds better, no mic bleed from other instruments, lower stage volume etc.

 

[Scott Peterson]

Present a good sound to FOH - either direct or via a mic'd amp - and they can either make it work or screw it up. No difference in the end.

Everything depends on the sound guy; running direct removes all the day-to-day variables regarding the room, the mic, the humidity, the mic placement and so on. I have my sound presented to FOH 'with velvet gloves' and KNOW exactly what i am giving them.

My discussion with sound guys that don't know me and my rig is simple - I respectfully inform them I am running direct at line level and that I'll control everything (including solo boost, etc) from stage. I suggest - respectfully - that they run the EQ flat to start on my channel and just get the level.

99.99999999% of the time over literally 500+ gigs rolling this way (Axe-FX direct-to-FOH) I've had nothing but raves and kudos; and my channel ends up flat in almost every single case. Because I know I am dialing in my tones on a reference level system and I know what works in a mix. I know that - big room, small room, live room, dead room, outdoors - what I am giving FOH is 100% dialed in and mix ready. The room has zilch effect/affect on how my amp sounds that day.

Powered monitors are merely for you to hear yourself; 80% of the time I run my monitor as a sidewash (and the other guitarist runs his conventional amp sidewash FWIW). We never have an issue hearing each other.

My sound checks are the shortest and best sound checks ever. "Guitar - stage right... (I bang some chords)... thank you..... next instrument...."

Dial your tones on a reference level system. If you know what you are doing, it is golden when you 'translate to FOH'. Every time.

It's almost like cheating.

 

[LostInSpace]

Present a good sound to FOH - either direct or via a mic'd amp - and they can either make it work or screw it up. No difference in the end.

Totally agree. I prefer real cabs and dial my sounds by putting a mic on the cab and playing through a PA with backing tracks, which results in patches that generally translate well to FOH. We record all our shows, and in my experience the sound guy's ability is by far the biggest factor. Even if you pass a "perfect" tone dialed on a reference system, the soundman still has to dial the mix properly for the acoustics of the room, and his system probably isn't very flat anyway, so he needs to know how to dial it.

I would think the most compelling reason to go FRFR is to get the tonal variety offered by various IRs, as opposed to using the same cab for all patches as I do. I don't see FRFR offering a significantly better chance of getting patches to translate to FOH. Your patches have to be designed to cut well, whatever your rig.